The outdated myth of integration
There is a fundamental logical error being displayed in the assumption that because Italian, German, and Swedish-speakers learned English and integrated substantially - although not wholly - into American culture, other ethnic groups will necessarily do so, particularly given the way in which technology reduces any need to do so:
The second reason is demographic. To what culture and social mores is a new Guatemalan immigrant to southern California going to integrate when most of the people surrounding him in his new place of residence are Spanish-speaking Mexicans? Once immigration is permitted beyond certain highly restricted levels, the possibility of integration is necessarily reduced, if not eliminated entirely. And the third reason is technological. With Skype and satellite entertainment systems, it is entirely possible to live in a foreign country without any actual contact with the local populace and culture beyond the occasional visit to the grocery store. I've known English-speakers living in Italy who after 15 years of living there still don't speak twenty words of Italian; they have no intention or need to integrate.
They were born in the UK, but many second and third generation immigrants speak or understand hardly any English, it was revealed today. Their poor understanding of the language means they are unable to take notes or understand basic instructions on training courses ranging from engineering to electronics. Experts warn that low standards of English in some minority groups have been blamed for widening ethnic divisions and creating communities where it is the second language.There are several reasons why immigrants are no longer integrating much, if at all, into the larger cultures. The first reason is that they come from different ethnic groups. It is a mistake to assume that all cultures and national identities are equally willing to submit themselves to another one. Italy, for example, wasn't even a singular nation until 1870 and the Irish hadn't been independent for centuries, so it should come as no surprise that they did not cling to national identities that many of them did not even possess in the first place.
The second reason is demographic. To what culture and social mores is a new Guatemalan immigrant to southern California going to integrate when most of the people surrounding him in his new place of residence are Spanish-speaking Mexicans? Once immigration is permitted beyond certain highly restricted levels, the possibility of integration is necessarily reduced, if not eliminated entirely. And the third reason is technological. With Skype and satellite entertainment systems, it is entirely possible to live in a foreign country without any actual contact with the local populace and culture beyond the occasional visit to the grocery store. I've known English-speakers living in Italy who after 15 years of living there still don't speak twenty words of Italian; they have no intention or need to integrate.
Labels: immigration
62 Comments:
Si, I mean "Oui", I mean...I don't know what I mean...
Dead horse meet stick. MPAI after all.
When I taught English in Taipei, I didn't have much need to integrate. A lot of folks spoke English, as well as the Taiwanese staff at our school. Since we used a total immersion philosophy of teaching, the students had to learn English from the start, while I simply had to speak in my native tongue. Like you said, between the internet and local pubs where us English speakers hung out, all I really had to learn was how to tell my address to the cab driver, and how to order pork and rice instead of chicken feet and stinky tofu.
I see that right here in Kansas City. Areas where the signs at small strip malls are all in Spanish. In the burbs, Walmart and Lowes with Spanish signage throughout the stores. In my middle class neighborhood there are now a number of hispanic residents, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them are illegals. They all have huge extended families. 40 years ago, you would hardly see a black person in this part of town, and now when I go to the Walmart, I'm almost always the minority, with mostly half black half hispanic shopper who aren't ever speaking English while I wait in the checkout line with them. We even have a Spanish newspaper in KC, Dos Mundos. That's how far up into the country it has spread.
I will say the Hispanics are much better neighbors than the blacks. They take care of their properties, and usually are two parent families.
What happens to the attitudes of their children when they grow up? I am afraid the positive attitudes of the parents will become one of resentment in the children.
Two hundred yeas ago in the Jewish Haskala [the Jewish Enlightenment] the Maskilim fought to drag Jews out of darkness and into the light in Eastern Europe. The Maskilim wanted Jews to learn the local languages and culture, and to assimilate and truly become Germans or Poles or Russians.
At the time there were hundreds of thriving Jewish communities that could not speak Polish/German/Russian (except those individuals that had to deal with goyim). No need.
This tradition of isolation/colonization still exists. You can go to Williamsburg in Brooklyn and Rockland County, NY and find entire communities of Jews who never speak English from one day to the next. Everything is in Yiddish. It keeps them safe.
They and their children are not angry, though, they are grateful. They can live in splendid isolation and have learned to work numerous welfare scams for support. No need for their kids to learn English, math, science, (goy) literature or the like.
Liberals respect this racial/ethnic isolation. Hillary got Bill to pardon one of their bull rabbi scammers just before he left office. In return she got something like 1214 of 1215 votes from the 100% Yiddish-speaking Jewish town for her Senatorial run.
By some Jewish estimates 60-80% of their typically 6-10 child families are on welfare in Rockland County [in the 100% Jewish towns of New Square and Kiryas Joel].
They have recreated their splendid Jewish isolation in America--and they have to do so. They have no choice. If they let their kids see TV, have internet cell phones, go to the library or public schools or mix and mingle with Americans, then lose them, and the Jews know it.
This is why they are fighting tooth and nail to dodge the draft in Israel and to keep at least one or two religious Jewish as ministers in the Israeli coalition governments: to keep the welfare scams going, to kick the secular Jews out of their towns, to enforce gender segregation, and, in general, to preserve the way of life they lived back in Russia, Poland and Lithuania in 1750.
Liberals respect this racial/ethnic isolation.
Probably has something to do with an oversized chunk of the liberal intelligentsia being a product of it.
A fourth reason: ideology. No one with any power _wants_ foreigners to assimilate in any meaningful way, since the erstwhile dominant culture is obviously evil.
As usual it's "Leave the gun, take the cannoli."
I think you overstate your case. The problem with integration has more to do with civility and less with a particular culture. If the law insures that anyone immigrating within the country is civil, then their culture is not much of an issue.
Then solution is to first eliminate the welfare state, which is much easier to do than the second part, which is to scrap the current justice system and replace it with a good one. Immigration will always be a problem that pales in comparison to these first 2 problems, and will become a bigger problem as time goes by because the first 2 problems will get worse if they aren't fixed.
The Guatemalan immigrant may not assimilate, but his kids will. They'll identify themselves with the Mexicans according to what I have heard. Watch Tele Mundo for the Spanish language broadcasts and that is what they'll hear about to a large extent. Mexican football. Mexican soap operas. Mexican news (after the US news reports? can't say because I don't watch and my Mexican-American wife speaks practically no Spanish).
There's also a fourth reason. If one is able to easily visit one's homeland, either because it's right next door or because transportation is quick and cheap, then one can always have one's original national identity constantly reinforced.
Big Bill,
Agree with you totally, except Kiryas Joel is in Orange County. They are a separate sect than the ones in New Square. KJ are Satmar, NS are Skverer.
The few times that I've gone there is surreal, you literally are in a foreign nation. It's not a place where outsiders are welcome. Rather than have to deal with them, the locals tend to shop at the nearby big box stores and large outlet on Saturday when none are around.
Integration works just fine. Jonestown was completely multicultural and they were all on the same page for the rest of their lives.
Vox,
How does this compare with your stay in Japan. I ask because I lived there, too, I think just prior to your tenure, and I think you know how resistant the Japanese are to gaijin assimilating into their culture. Not a critisism, just an observation.
Sad to say, I neither type nor spell very well.
> ...which is much easier to do than the second part, which is to scrap the current justice system and replace it with a good one.
Humans being what they are, you'll never have a good justice system. The best you can hope for is one that isn't abysmal. And the basis for that is well known, and has been for centuries: Judges who aren't beholden to the political structure and a jury of your peers.
Past immigrants assimilated because they couldn't go home but every Minnesota roofer is a Mexican who winters Down South like our snowbird retirees.
Familes shop at the Mercado, watch government access Spanish-language cable tv and send their kids to the ESL blackboard bario. The driver's icense "written" test is video as you need not speak English to recognize a Stop sign, right?
Family legend says great-grandfather was sent home from country school for being a dumb Quebeccer who spoke only French. Nowadays, he'd get a tutor and a welfare check.
You forget the most important reason for the lack of assimilation -- the Left and its minions in government, the media, and the schools not only do not require immigrants to assimilate, but actively discourage them from doing so.
The problem with integration has more to do with civility and less with a particular culture. If the law insures that anyone immigrating within the country is civil, then their culture is not much of an issue.
That's a ludicrously ignorant statement that completely misses the point. It makes absolutely no difference how civil the Spanish-speaking Mexican immigrants are, they simply cannot integrate in any way, shape, or form so long as they are effectively living in Mexico outside Mexico.
The British in Italy are very civil, often more civil than the Italians. But they're not at all integrated. I've noticed that as a general rule, the British tend to strongly resist integrating, it appears to be somewhat of an imperial legacy.
Why should anyone want to integrate with what we've become? Look at this one example of what this country is now all about. This footage is from Boston I believe.
Tax Payer Funded Scooter Meets the Escalator
Well, if the British do not integrate, at least there'll always be an England...it just won't be located on an island in the North Atlantic.
Why should anyone want to integrate with what we've become? Look at this one example of what this country is now all about. This footage is from Boston I believe.
Tax Payer Funded Scooter Meets the Escalator
And "rescued" by two fat slob, supposedly grown men, who think it's appropriate to go out in public in shorts and sandals.
Nuke and start over.
I am about to head to Europe for a fifth time this year and all year long I have tried my level best learn the language of my host country. Rosetta Stone like crazy. I made facebook friends with many of my colleagues over the pond so that I know what is important, what is considered humorous, how can I frame what I am saying into something pleasant ... people like to work with people they like. Plus, I dig all of their history.
So it just astounds me that anyone would choose not to integrate if they decided to inhabit another country. Unless of course you completely hate the new customs and culture, then the question begs, why the hell are you there? My wife lived for a time in Paris and grew to dislike the French more each day. Talk about middle of the bell curve. :)
The total open borders freaks need to keep in mind man's enormous capacity for laziness. Ergo, it will obviously never work.
Signed, Elegantly Designed Snowflake
This footage is from Boston I believe.
Now that was hilarious.
This comment has been removed by the author.
@Stilicho
I cannot stop watching it every few hours or so. It is impossible to explain the profound visceral cocktail of deep amusement and dripping antipathy.
Going to go listen to Tool. And learn to swim. Learn to swim.
One hundred years ago you could have had a German, Italian, Pole, Greek and a Russian Jew living in NYC. They needed to learn English to integrate into American society and to communicate with the other immigrants whose languages they did not speak.
Today you could have a Dominican, Honduran, Guatemalan, Mexican and Salvadoran living in NYC. They don't need to learn English to integrate into American society since the government offers services, ballots and licensees in their language. Additionally, there is radio, TV and print media to cater to their needs. However, the big thing is that they no longer need English to speak to the other immigrants. All these immigrants already speak Spanish.
It definitely is not you grand daddy's America.
A fourth reason, which in a sense ties into overall demographics (particularly relating to southern Cal), is that not only are their neighbors Spanish speaking Hispanics; they also firmly believe that their new home is occupied territory that rightfully belongs to Mexico. Hence they are merely aiding the process of returning the land to their beloved Mexico through sheer numbers alone.
Reconquesta is the most used term and it has been proudly discussed from higher ups such as Mayor Villaraigosa and top brass at the LAUSD all the way down to the lowest wage, immigrant laborers. In essence, the pervasive attitude among many Hispanics in the southwest U.S. is, "why adopt the U.S. culture when we're rapidly on the way to reclaiming Azatlan (SW United States) for its rightful owners?"
Sadly, I can't say I fault them for this mindset and we only have ourselves to blame for this utter disaster the U.S. has become.
It's worth remembering that traditionally, immigrants to the United States were encouraged to assimilate. Strongly encouraged. IF you were willing to do so, you were welcome. If not...you were welcome to move elsewhere.
Reconquesta is the most used term and it has been proudly discussed from higher ups such as Mayor Villaraigosa and top brass at the LAUSD all the way down to the lowest wage, immigrant laborers. In essence, the pervasive attitude among many Hispanics in the southwest U.S. is, "why adopt the U.S. culture when we're rapidly on the way to reclaiming Azatlan (SW United States) for its rightful owners?"
I have no doubt many speak of the Reconquista. But I don't think they will ever separate into their own country. I believe the Mexicans are not that dumb and know that their best bet is to remain a part of the USA to keep the bennies flowing. If they break away, they will rapidly become Mexico or something even worse, like a Detroit. They know they have to keep the white taxpayer or their economy will go to hell.
It should be obvious. They aren't coming here for freedom or the American way. They want jobs.
Jobs and handouts, Giraffe
Just a thought, but would it be better if a certain percentage of whites were encouraged to immigrate to Mexico and other third world nations? I imagine we could include some Chinese in that too.
My idea is all these third worlders are coming to European lands for jobs and benefits. They are not coming to partake in Western Civ. They are just unable to build strong economies, despite possessing lands with abundant resources, (hello, Mexico), so they travel to live among Europeans, the wealth creators.
Maybe it would be easier if the third worlders stayed put and we sent some enterprising whites and Chinese to live there. They could energize the local economy and maybe help provide a better life for the third worlders in their home countries while leaving our countries to remain civilized.
No, Giraffe. I've read that only 1 in 4 of the current illegals work. The rest are on welfare, support themselves by crime, or are supported by someone who subsists on one or both of those or who works. That means that 3/4 of illegals could be gone tomorrow without lowering their actual contribution to the economy one bit.
Maybe it would be easier if the third worlders stayed put and we sent some enterprising whites and Chinese to live there.
They would cannibalize those industries in no time. Only way it would work is through imperialism.
Maybe it would be easier if the third worlders stayed put and we sent some enterprising whites and Chinese to live there. They could energize the local economy and maybe help provide a better life for the third worlders in their home countries while leaving our countries to remain civilized.
Umm, they tried that. They called it colonialism and told them to go home, sometimes violently....then they followed and called it racism if we didn't let them in.
Have you been in a coma for 60 years or something?
On a side note on Imperialism, anybody here play Crusader Kings II? I've started two games now, and both times in less than a year the Muslims just come in forces 10 larger than I could raise even in theory, and they just f*ck my sh*t up. What's an Orthodox Christian supposed to do against those g*ddamned Mussulmen?
They would cannibalize those industries in no time. Only way it would work is through imperialism.
Oh crap, Derbyshire went and translated White Man's Burden into Mandarin. It's the best explanation for what the Chicoms are doing.
What's an Orthodox Christian supposed to do against those g*ddamned Mussulmen?
Split an atom.
We've GOT to be getting close to the end.
My father-in-law is from Damascus but has lived here longer than he lived in Syria. He and his wife raised the children to be American instead of living in a Muslim enclave and was fairly Americanised and loose about Islam. However about 10-15 years ago he got an Arabic-language satellite dish. I've noticed a fairly profound attitude shift since then. He has become much more religiously observant and more socially intolerant. Even his accent has gotten thicker. It's hard to tell how much is the fear brought on by getting closer to death and trying to atone for his sins and how much is cultural reinforcement from the Arabic programming, but there is a great deal of truth in the social immersion concept.
Umm, they tried that. They called it colonialism and told them to go home, sometimes violently....then they followed and called it racism if we didn't let them in.
Yeah but the Chinese don't give a shit about using violence or being called raciss', so they can make it work. Good luck to 'em!
So it just astounds me that anyone would choose not to integrate if they decided to inhabit another country. Unless of course you completely hate the new customs and culture, then the question begs, why the hell are you there? My wife lived for a time in Paris and grew to dislike the French more each day. Talk about middle of the bell curve. :)
That is a very easy question to answer. If you believe the culture you have grown up with is superior to the one you are moving to for reasons other than assimilation, then there is absolutely no reason to integrate.
Those reasons are many: work, research, non-immersive missions, adventure, leisure, refuge. There is, in fact, no intrinsic reason why an immigrant should integrate, unless integration is somehow an advantage to achieving their objective.
After all, the men who went to live among the cannibals didn't need to become a cannibal to do so. Some got eaten, some changed the culture - but they didn't integrate.
We've GOT to be getting close to the end.
Holy effing, wow! Just an hour ago I go on a mini-tirade about the slovenly ,juvenile dress of American adult males, and you show me just how behind the times I am in my outrage.
For anyone that didn't click his link, we now have "Brony" (adult male My Little Pony freaks) military units wearing unauthorized rainbow lightning patches on their uniforms signifying their love for the young girls cartoon and toys.
Trump my petty concerns on shorts and sandals by a factor of 1000.
Anymore I get up and wonder just how much more broken and fucked society can be today than yesterday, and America delivers a new high every morning. Way to go America.
Towelheads, do your worst.
"Reconquesta" will not work, yet.... There's the white La Jolla in the middle.
I agree there's no integration, but this will save California from integrating with Mexico. In fact, the rising minorities of the Asians will resist such attempts. The city of Los Angeles is a new ghetto. I avoid it entirely.
I am stunned. I don't even recognize our military any more.
Pretty sure that is a final and devastatingly load-bearing pillar that one loses right before the inexorable collapse from cultural rot.
My Little Pony. You cannot make this stuff up. No one would believe it.
signifying their love for the young girls cartoon and toys
I think the cartoon itself isn't the true love, but rather the rainbows in it, if you catch my drift.
In fact, you can't appreciate the full scale of the Bronies phenomenon from that link. It's not just that these people watch the cartoons, they also own a rather large collection of My Little Pony dolls, which they regularly groom with their little hairbrushes.
The video game magazine my sister works for did an exposé on Bronies, you see.
@Markku Please, I relent. Make it stop. It's true. Ignorance is bliss.
And my ever so slight dyslexia reads it as Brownies. Probably not an accident.
More insanity. The US Department of Agriculture is now enlisting the Mexican government to help spread the word to Mexican nationals in the USA about taking advantage of the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), or food stamps.
If this doesn't tell you the government is out of control, I don't know what will.
Vox:
And how many of those 15-yr English speaking expats moved to Italy without a dollar to their name and work as dishwashers? How many moved to Italy because they were impoverished in the US? How many live 10 to a crappy rental apartment?
Vox writes:...It makes absolutely no difference how civil the Spanish-speaking Mexican immigrants are...
The British in Italy are very civil, often more civil than the Italians. ...
If they are civil, then why is "integration" such an issue? Who get's hurt if the culture changes if it is just as civil as before?
If they are civil, then why is "integration" such an issue? Who get's hurt if the culture changes if it is just as civil as before?
Everyone who likes their culture the way it is. The Italians absolutely hate those British who can't be bothered to learn Italian or become involved with their neighbors, despite their general inoffensiveness.
And how many of those 15-yr English speaking expats moved to Italy without a dollar to their name and work as dishwashers? How many moved to Italy because they were impoverished in the US? How many live 10 to a crappy rental apartment?
None. None. None. And the rich Russians don't bother having anything to do with the locals either.
VD writes:Everyone who likes their culture the way it is. The Italians absolutely hate those British who can't be bothered to learn Italian or become involved with their neighbors, despite their general inoffensiveness.
They don't like it. I see.
In that case there are important things to worry about in this world, but that aint one of 'em.
I was born into my culture and I have yet to fully integrate.
Just not interested. I find it is more advantageous to me pick and choose what I want to conform to.
"I have no doubt many speak of the Reconquista. But I don't think they will ever separate into their own country. I believe the Mexicans are not that dumb and know that their best bet is to remain a part of the USA to keep the bennies flowing. If they break away, they will rapidly become Mexico or something even worse, like a Detroit. They know they have to keep the white taxpayer or their economy will go to hell"
I doubt that. Many of these moochers would tell you its the fault of the white oppressor that Mexico is a festering toilette. As far as they are concerned everything will be fine once the white people are put in their proper place and all the wealth the whites hoarded is redistributed to the people it expropriated from. They are good little proles.
Maybe it would be easier if the third worlders stayed put and we sent some enterprising whites and Chinese to live there. They could energize the local economy and maybe help provide a better life for the third worlders in their home countries while leaving our countries to remain civilized.
That's the big joke of it all, it's White Man's Burden: Round 2. The open borders crowd implicitly endorse colonialism, albeit on a voluntary basis. Why do all the foreigners need to come here? To live under the laws of America. So we can import the people, or export the laws......
"In the meantime, be sure to start a corporation and hire yourself before committing any crimes. Then fire yourself, and tell the police that you are no longer with the company when they come to investigate. They will then turn the matter over to the appropriate regulatory agency, which will fine the corporation about five percent of the profit you made from your illegal acts. This is what passes for criminal justice in America circa 2012."
Sharing! PRICELESS!!!
Daniel Hannan, Enlgish MEP, has spoken on the phenomeom and his opinion that a lot of it has to do with a lack of self respect of the dominant culture. Meaning that if the culture in question, in this case Anglo-Saxon, doesn't expect assimilation, encourage, or foster it, but rather focuses on on their failings and their past follies (as seen often in academia and popular culture); then its no wonder that the immigrants and their scions never assimilate. In short no one respects an individual, or culture, that doesn't respect themselves.
Given the points you make Vox. I would say that its more imperative now that society takes an active process in the assimilation process.
You can't make this stuff up department:
Illegal Muslim in Spain gets face kicked in by horse he tried to have sex with.
Was THIRD time he'd been caught on this farm trying to make love to horses there(wasn't even his own horse).
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2012/07/spain-horse-destroys-muslim-illegals.html
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