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Friday, April 12, 2013

Abortion is slaughter

In case the advances in technology haven't made it perfectly clear yet to the morally challenged, the case of Kermit Goswell should suffice to demonstrate to even the most avowed feminist that abortion is pure and simple murder.  Note that this link is safe, but you may wish to be careful about reading through the court documents or looking at any of the pictures, as they are downright stomach-turning.
Abortion provider Kermit Gosnell, 72, is charged with killing a woman patient and seven babies allegedly born alive, and with performing illegal, late-term abortions at his thriving inner-city clinic. Co-defendant Eileen O'Neill, 56, of Phoenixville, is charged with billing as a doctor and participating in a corrupt organization.

Eight former employees have pleaded guilty, some to third-degree murder, and have testified this month about bizarre, often-chaotic practices at the clinic.

Ashley Baldwin spoke Thursday of starting there at age 15 through a high school training program, and soon assisting with abortions and administering intravenous drugs. Baldwin, now 22, said she worked nearly 50-hour weeks, often well past midnight, when abortions were routinely performed.
No doubt this case will spark protests that Not All Abortion Clinics Are Like That as it gradually leaks into the public consciousness despite the best efforts of the media to keep it contained.  But that is akin to claiming that there was nothing wrong with Bergen-Belsen because, after all, things were worse at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Let's make it perfectly clear.  If you are a doctor or a nurse who performs abortions, you are every bit as bad, every bit as purely evil, as the SS-Totenkopfverbänder who slaughtered people in the National Socialists' extermination camps.  And if you are a woman who aborts her child, you are every bit as bad, every bit as disgusting, as the SS guards at those camps, who may not have bloodied their hands themselves, but were complicitcollaborated by making the killing possible.

And if you simply support the so-called "right" to legal abortion, you are no better than a card-carrying member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.  In fact, you are even worse.  For all their many flaws, the National Socialists at least had a substantive cause: the preservation of a defeated and economically devastated German nation.  Your cause is mere female convenience, rendering you even more repellant and abominable in the eyes of anyone who values human life.  Their symbol was the reversed Swastika, but yours should be a pyramid of infant skulls.

I understand you have your rationalizations and your justifications.  I am aware that you firmly believe that an unborn, or partially born, or newly born, child is either not human or is for some reason or another unworthy of the same right to life possessed by adult human beings who hate racism, support sexual equality, and voted for Barack Obama. I appreciate that you are absolutely convinced that acting to terminate the life of a genetically unique individual who is dependent upon his mother for his continued survival is no different than cutting one's hair or trimming one's nails.  I know you assert that because it is a woman's body, she can do whatever she wants with it, all the various trespassing and drug and flasher laws notwithstanding. Or perhaps you have a different reason, in which case feel free to make your case for it here.

But remember this: the Nazis had their justifications too. And those justifications were considerably more soundly rooted in science, history, and logic than yours are.

I assure you, I guarantee you, that future history is going to remember feminists and everyone else who supported the 20th-21st century Holocaust of the Unborn with every bit as much disgust and horror as today's progressives regard 18th-19th century slavers and 20th century Nazis.  The tide is already beginning to turn, as many feminists have finally realized a few of the unforeseen, but retrospectively obvious consequences of their so-called right and begun lobbying for laws against sex-screening and the free exercise of their unholy "right" for officially unapproved reasons.

So, I call on you to rethink your stance, truly rethink it, and repent. Redeem yourself by turning against this evil practice you have supported and speaking out against it. Ask for forgiveness from God and from the millions of innocents whose deaths you rationalized and even encouraged.  What is done cannot be undone, but it is never too late to turn away from evil and refuse to continue walking along its dark path.

Stop all the endless rationalizations and justifications. Just stop. They are pointless. You know, in your heart of hearts, they aren't convincing anyone.  They aren't even convincing you.

Labels: ,

376 Comments:

1 – 200 of 376 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Jeromus April 12, 2013 9:02 AM  

Amen.

Anonymous Stephen J. April 12, 2013 9:06 AM  

Amen.

Anonymous David of One April 12, 2013 9:08 AM  

Agreed. Amen.

Anonymous JI April 12, 2013 9:10 AM  

How awful! He made that young girl work excessively long hours. He's going down for that!

Anonymous farmer Tom April 12, 2013 9:11 AM  

AMEN

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 9:12 AM  

Vox, this was a wonderful post. Perhaps this isn't as substantive a comment as you'd like to see appear here, but nonetheless I feel impelled to share this feeling with you. Regards.

Anonymous DrTorch April 12, 2013 9:12 AM  

But, but, it's all about women's health

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/04/10/another-abortion-clinic-horror-story-planned-parenthood-of-delaware/

Anonymous Pol Mordreth April 12, 2013 9:17 AM  

The only abortions I support are in cases of legitimate medical self defense. If the birth of the child will result in the death of the mother or the death of both, then it is justifiable homicide in self defense. No different morally (to me) than using a firearm to defend myself against an attacker that had no ability to determine right from wrong (retardation or insanity). If that were the only abortion, we may see a dozen or two a year. And, I would still seek forgiveness for my part in it.

Regards,
Pol

Anonymous Other Josh April 12, 2013 9:18 AM  

Dude. Awesome post.

Blogger JartStar April 12, 2013 9:18 AM  

The media has done everything in its power to squash this story. They are enablers.

Warning! When this story first broke I did go to a site which had pictures not knowing what I'd find, and I advise anyone not to do it as those images will be with me a long time.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 9:21 AM  

Brilliant post.

We can't tread softly around butchery. Thanks for not.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 9:23 AM  

Amen, Vox.

This is a barbaric and absolute evil

Anonymous Curlytop April 12, 2013 9:24 AM  

@Pol Mordeth

They are called therapeutic abortions and they existed long before the butcher of the innocents was made "legal" in 1973. Always a red herring when this is being discussed.

That being said, when we were having children, my husband knew explicitly that MY life was to be sacrificed if there was a choice to be made.

If there is anything that you have posted more worthy, Vox then I am not aware of it. Excellent Post! Amen!

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 9:25 AM  

When this story first broke I did go to a site which had pictures not knowing what I'd find, and I advise anyone not to do it as those images will be with me a long time.

On the contrary, I think we should spread those pictures to every feminist, politician, and judge.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 9:27 AM  

Kermit Goswell -- worth of a post-birth abortion. .38 special maybe?

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus April 12, 2013 9:27 AM  

Amen.

Anonymous LeslieSusan April 12, 2013 9:27 AM  

I believe that going with the theme here, the better term is collaborator. That nasty group does enable evil, but they are usually the recipient of a far worse vengeance in the end.

And lest we forget, there are a lot of men out there who pay for abortions when the women in their lives get pregnant. Maybe not as many, but they are there.

I can barely read some of the stories about this modern Mengele. I find my mind just doesn't want to accept the horror just yet. I just want the Lord to come quickly.

Anonymous TJIC April 12, 2013 9:30 AM  

I find it amusing that leftists spend so much time congratulating themselves on speaking "truth to power". By which they mean gathering in huge self-reenforcing herds on welcoming university campuses, or in Cambridge, or Berkley, or the Mall in DC, and shouting things that everyone within ear shot - and everyone within polite society - agrees with.

"Greed is bad - boo!"

"You shouldn't torture people - boo!"

Oh, my precious snowflakes...you are SO BRAVE.

True intellectual bravery is saying things that polite society scorns and mocks.

This:

If you are a doctor or a nurse who performs abortions, you are every bit as bad, every bit as purely evil, as the SS-Totenkopfverbänder who slaughtered people in the National Socialists' extermination camps.

is ten times braver than anything a leftist has ever said. It draws a line in the sand (or, rather, reiterates God's line), and says "200 million Americans, and everyone who has ever written a column for the New York Times, may be on the other side of this line. So be it. You're doing the Devil's work."

That is intellectual bravery.

A fat NASCAR guy and his wife in Walmart sweatpants protesting outside an abortion clinic, to the jeers of the "intellectuals" - that's also intellectual bravery.

To stand up and challenge the Cathedral of Lies even once takes more balls than to organize a thousand "take back the night" marches.

Anonymous Pol Mordreth April 12, 2013 9:31 AM  

@Curlytop: Agreed and understood. My wife and I discussed it as well. For our first, my wife would have risked it. For our second (and so on) it would have been a much harder decision.

Anonymous Real Libertarian April 12, 2013 9:32 AM  

Let me list all the libertarians who disagree with you:

Ayn Rand
Murray Rothbard
Walter Block
Harry Browne

You are NOT a "libertarian" sir. You are no better than the neocons who make war on others.


"no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" - Murray Rothbard

Anonymous J. J. April 12, 2013 9:32 AM  

Thank you for ignoring Godwin's Law (or, technically, the common usage of it that says you're a big meanie and you automatically lose once you've made Nazi comparisons). Whatever original good purposes Mr. Godwin may have had, his "law" was long ago hijacked by leftists trying to shield themselves from having to deal with the implications of their philosophies.

Anonymous AmyJ April 12, 2013 9:32 AM  

@Pol any woman who chooses her life over her child's is unfit to be a mother.

Anonymous Edjamacator April 12, 2013 9:34 AM  

When I read what some of these scum did, the only thing I could think is "they should thank God that I'm not Him." Had I unlimited power, they wouldn't be anywhere near as healthy as they are right now. In fact, the screaming would still be going on.

And yet abortion supporters won't be swayed. They are covered in blood and they like it, or at the least they just refuse to see it.

Anonymous Edjamacator April 12, 2013 9:35 AM  

"no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" - Murray Rothbard

Even when it's your own actions that bring that life into existence. Yeah, ok.

Blogger IM2L844 April 12, 2013 9:35 AM  

This will undoubtedly be used as an argument for moar government

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 9:37 AM  

"no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" - Murray Rothbard

Rothbard was wrong about this just as he was wrong about the mechanism of the Austrian Business Cycle. And even if we accept his naked assertion, the "unbidden" caveat does not apply unless the woman was forcibly raped.

I note that my position is in line with that of Mises, who described abortion as "as one of several 'egregious and repulsive practices' that include infanticide."

Abortion is no more compatible with libertarianism than death camps.

Anonymous Pol Mordreth April 12, 2013 9:38 AM  

@AmyJ: Bull. When having to make an arduous decision between taking care of your existing children and dying with a decent chance that the child that kills you wont survive either (and honestly, that's most common diagnosis for therapeutic abortion) how do you decide which child you love more?

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 9:38 AM  

The FBI was only interested in the clinic due to suspicion of illicit prescription drug sales, but at least they did not sweep this under the rug.

Blogger The Observer April 12, 2013 9:38 AM  

""no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" - Murray Rothbard"

Already dealt with in the Violinist Argument. If it wasn't rape, "unbidden" is rot.

Also, use the proper term, "symbiote", because if you want to be strict about it fetal cells transverse the placenta and provide regenerative effects upon a woman's body for the rest of her life; sheets of fetal cells have been found in mothers' kidneys and liver, and male DNA has been found in the brains of women who have had sons.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 9:39 AM  

"Ann Furedi, chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, goes further. "Is there anything qualitatively different about a fetus at, say, 28 weeks that gives it a morally different status to a fetus at 18 weeks or even eight weeks?" she asks. "Why should we assume later abortions are 'bad'—or, at least, 'more wrong' than early ones?" Furedi rejects this assumption and concludes that "in later pregnancy, too, I believe that the decision, and the responsibility that comes with it, should rest with the pregnant woman. … We either support women's moral agency or we do not. … There is no middle ground to straddle."

Among other things, this means no time limits. Furedi argues that "women should have access to abortion as early as possible and as late as necessary." In her current essay, she writes: "To argue that a woman should no longer be able to make a moral decision about the future of her pregnancy, because 20 or 18 or 16 weeks have passed, assaults [moral autonomy] and, in doing so, assaults the tradition of freedom of conscience…" In fact, "the delivery of an abortion procedure in the second (and even third) trimester is preferable to its denial."
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/311053.php

Anonymous Daniel April 12, 2013 9:40 AM  

I do not write this lightly:

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 9:41 AM  

Real LibertarianApril 12, 2013 9:32 AM

Let me list all the libertarians who disagree with you:
Ayn Rand
Murray Rothbard
Walter Block
Harry Browne
You are NOT a "libertarian" sir. You are no better than the neocons who make war on others.


Wow, a whole four names! And the "no true libertarian!" Argument!

Would you happen to be a Scotsman?

And how is the slaughter of fifty million infants remotely comparable to the wars in the middle east?

Anonymous Raymur Bardroth April 12, 2013 9:43 AM  

http://l4l.org/

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 9:43 AM  

A parasite also, by definition, is a different species than the host. So really, not only are the pro-abortion crowd supporting barbarism, but they're hating science.

Anonymous Ioweenie April 12, 2013 9:45 AM  

One of the turning points in my own tortured wrong thinking was when I was going through secondary infertility (one child conceived and birthed, then no more). At the same time, my sister in law was pregnant with her first baby but didn't know about our unsuccessful efforts. She had a sister who had child with a chromosomal malady unique to males that resulted in mental retardation so she elected to have testing to find out if her fetus had the syndrome. As we discussed her pregnancy, she sounded tense and finally revealed she wouldn't relax until after the testing. As I questioned her more, she said, "If we find out the baby has the disorder, that will be the end of it." I knew she had had two abortions with her husband when they were much younger and dating. I asked, "Would you do that?" She replied, "Oh, yes. In a minute. NO questions asked. It would be done."

I remember listening in horror and realizing that I myself might face a similar dilemma if I finally did become pregnant as at my advanced maternal age and KNEW that if my baby did have a birth defect, I too want to have an abortion.

It was a life-changing moment. I had been "pro-choice" my entire post-adolescent life. In that instant, I realized what I really had been was pro-ME and whatever I felt like. My own hypocrisy sickened me as I realized that after months of hoping and trying and medical procedures to become pregnant and taking pregnancy tests at the earliest possible moment to deem myself with child, that I would deem that child unworthy of being born just because I didn't want to be bothered with the possible difficulty and challenges of a "less than perfect child." In essence, that I - that women like me - had become the arbiters of who was human or not, who would live or not.

That was almost 20 years ago. I'm crying right now remembering what a deluded foolish selfish person I was (and struggle still to not be). When you realize you've made a lifetime of forever life-altering (and life-ending) bad choices based on lies (i.e., feminism), it is troubling and maddening.

I've ranted on Alpha Game as Disillusioned. It is when I have to admit the lies I believed that I want to rant and rail against the truth. I keep coming back here to read and learn because I - we - all need to have the truth told to us, unapologetically.

Thank you VD and ilk for speaking the truth.

Blogger The Observer April 12, 2013 9:47 AM  

To be honest, I'm not surprised; this is what happens at the end of a civilisation. The weak and helpless get picked off first. First it was the unborn, now the elderly are being called to die, and now there're calls for the obese and smokers to die as well.

Remember the Romans? Ate their contraceptive/abortifacent herb off the face of the earth, believed in "post-birth abortions" by abandoning babies to die for up to ten days after birth.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 9:47 AM  

"The media has done everything in its power to squash this story. They are enablers."

more here: https://twitter.com/AceofSpadesHQ

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 9:48 AM  

One of my greatest shames is supporting the "right to choose" during my teen and early college years. I'd like to blame it all on the public education machine or the influences of media and popular opinion but ultimately the moral failing was mine.

In reading this post I realized I have never truly asked for forgiveness. In over a decade since rejecting the barbaric practice of abortion I have not once repented, yet another failing.

I have some serious prayer and meditation to do tonight. Thank you for this post Vox.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 9:49 AM  

MALEDICTION
Lyrics: Kemper Crabb
Music: Kemper Crabb & Frank Hart 

The judges sat outside the law
And in their pride no evil saw
In setting teeth to Satan’s jaw
And feeding him our children

A curse a curse the Law it cries
A curse a curse on mankind’s pride
A curse on him who would deny
God’s image in mankind

When viewed in terms of cost and ease
An unborn child is a disease
A holocaust seen fit to please
Our own convenience. 
Torn from out their mother’s womb
Denied the sky, denied the tomb
Conceived in lust to their own ruin
 A sacrifice to pleasure  

A curse, a curse their blood cries out
A curse, a curse the heavens shout
A curse, a curse on him who dares to flout
God’s image in mankind.

The doctors with their blood red hands
Who love their money more than man
With greed their god they lay their plans
The butchers of mankind. 

O rid us of this evil, Lord
And turn our hearts by cross or sword
Our nation cannot long afford
To live beneath Your anger

A curse, a curse upon their heads
O save them Lord or slay them dead
And fill our country with your Dread
And turn away Your anger.

A curse, a curse upon their heads
Oh save them Lord or slay them dead
And fill our nation with your dread
And turn away Your anger

Lord, turn away Your anger
Lord, turn away Your anger

Anonymous TLM April 12, 2013 9:50 AM  

Real Libertarian..
Let me list all the libertarians who disagree with you:

Ayn Rand
Murray Rothbard
Walter Block
Harry Browne

You are NOT a "libertarian" sir. You are no better than the neocons who make war on others.......


And there's an example of why libertarians can't win elections. Regardless of how sound the Libertarian point of view is economically and concerning foreign policy, common sense knows that abortion is just plain wrong, nobody with a sound mind wants uneducated loser illegal immigrants coming and going as they please, and addicts being enabled to freely purchase and use drugs such as meth, heroin, etc openly. I can't stand Michael Medved, but his "losertarian" jab is fitting.

Blogger Historicus April 12, 2013 9:50 AM  

Where are all of the rabbits and pharyngulists today?

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 9:50 AM  

"They looked just like regular babies..."
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130412_Teen_intern_at_Gosnell_clinic_recalls_hearing_one_aborted_fetus__quot_screeching_quot_.html

Anonymous Asatru Heathen April 12, 2013 9:51 AM  

One of your best posts. Bravo, and so mote it be.

Anonymous Viking April 12, 2013 9:51 AM  

Very well put.
And for a story about someone who repented and crossed over to the culture of life, read the story of Abby Johnson. http://www.amazon.com/Unplanned-Dramatic-Planned-Parenthood-Eye-Opening/dp/1414339402/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365774303&sr=1-1&keywords=unplanned+abby+johnson

And stories like her's are not unique or even rare, though our corrupt media would have you think that.

Blogger SarahsDaughter April 12, 2013 9:51 AM  

When having to make an arduous decision between taking care of your existing children and dying with a decent chance that the child that kills you wont survive either (and honestly, that's most common diagnosis for therapeutic abortion) how do you decide which child you love more?

Dying is an expression of not loving your children?

She died so my brother could live <-- That is one selfless legacy of love so honorable generations to come will laud her praises.

Anonymous Other Josh April 12, 2013 9:53 AM  

My wife and I are involved with a clinic in our community that was founded and operated by the Southern Baptist church. They give free ultrasounds and counseling to any woman who is pregnant and isn't sure what to do...

The intent, of course, is to prevent abortion and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

They keep in touch with people who come into their clinic and have some amazing data:

1.) About 85% of women who come in by themselves and see their baby & it's heartbeat via ultrasound choose not to have an abortion.

2.) When the boyfriend/husband is present and sees the baby & it's heartbeat - that percentage rises to 100%. This statistic amazed me. God gave men the responsibility to protect their family & children. Even though these men may be far from God & living a life that is contrary to Him - it's almost as if that protective instinct kicks in when they see their unborn child.

3.) Much of the counseling they do is for the 15% who went ahead and had the abortion after seeing the baby via ultrasound. It devastated them. You never hear feminists talking about this consequence of abortion. Although tragic, these counseling sessions allow good opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus and the forgiveness He is able to offer.

Anonymous thepope April 12, 2013 9:53 AM  

Don't worry, the babies didn't even know what death is. We accept a certain percentage of fallout for practical purposes all the time, for example car accidents, or deaths on the job. And those are grown adults, presumably with as much a soul as one will ever possess. So don't cry too much, it's a tough life.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 9:54 AM  

Vox:

Just watch. The meme will be this...

"What Kermit Gosnell tells us about late-term abortion

Absolutely nothing.

No, really. Contrary to what Great Moral Authority On Abortion William Saletan has to say about the matter, I think we’re all pretty well agreed that if the charges against Kermit Gosnell are true, then dude is a criminal and needs to go to jail. Killing a baby after it’s born and has taken breaths? Is not abortion. It should be, and is, a crime punishable by law. And Kermit Gosnell is being criminally prosecuted."

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/01/20/what-kermit-gosnell-tells-us-about-late-term-abortion/

Blogger Hamilton April 12, 2013 9:56 AM  

If stuff like what Gosnell did are a glimpse into the future of our society, I don't want to be around for it. I'd much rather find people like him and go Dexter on them until I'm caught or killed. There are limits to the amount of evil I can stand before I'll likely insane and embrace a vengeful, pain-inducing, and murderous demeanor.

Blogger JartStar April 12, 2013 9:57 AM  

@Ioweenie

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool. ~Isaiah 1:18

Anonymous Curlytop April 12, 2013 9:58 AM  

@ Pol Mordeth

With all due respect, it's not Bull. However, your assertion about "loving one child more than another" because a mother chooses life is horribly flawed. Though I can sympathize with a man's plight, you wouldn't be the first man to have to deal with raising children alone bc a spouse died. Sometimes life gives us hard situations, not easy paths. This is when we are tested but let me assure you that when you make the right decision despite it all, that's when you are blessed. Conversely, the couples that have chosen the other path, usually face depression, substance abuse, and divorce.

This isn't merely an intellectual exercise either. I have dealt with this personally, on both sides of my family, and with close personal friends.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 10:00 AM  


Would you happen to be a Scotsman?


All true Scotsmen have abandoned the no-true-Scotsman argument.

Blogger JD Curtis April 12, 2013 10:01 AM  

Thanks Vox, I'm sharing this one with everyone I know. On a related note, this is one of the more disturbing developments I came across concerning this issue...

"A branch of Planned Parenthood in Eureka, California is holding a prayer vigil in support of abortion. The 40 Days of Prayer Campaign: Supporting Women Everywhere has sprang up in opposition to the pro-life vigil 40 Days of Prayer for Life.

Six Rivers Planned Parenthood (SRPP) is hoping to bring a different view to abortion. Some of there prayer topics include asking Christians to "embrace the loving model of Jesus in the way he refused to shame women" and praying for "a cloud of gentleness to surround every abortion facility. May everyone feel calm and loving."

They are hoping to change Christians' viewpoint of the "sacred care" of abortions. The vigil is being supported and led by SRPP's Clergy for Choice who refer to themselves as "religious leaders who value all human life."

"We believe that human life is holy. That's why we believe in your right to choose to be a parent or not," a flyer from the clergy read.' Link

Anonymous the bandit April 12, 2013 10:04 AM  

It devastated them.

Yes; abortion hurts women. And if you are one of those who collaborated in the killing and thereby wounded yourself, please know that there is forgiveness, healing, and hope available to you. Your local pregnancy care center can likely connect you with the local groups, or Google "abortion recovery."

Anonymous Curlytop April 12, 2013 10:04 AM  

SarahsDaughter April 12, 2013 9:51 AM
When having to make an arduous decision between taking care of your existing children and dying with a decent chance that the child that kills you wont survive either (and honestly, that's most common diagnosis for therapeutic abortion) how do you decide which child you love more?

Dying is an expression of not loving your children?

She died so my brother could live <-- That is one selfless legacy of love so honorable generations to come will laud her praises.


Amen ,Sarah! And we've seen that in my family. In fact, my mother-in-law lives bc HER mother, who was diagnosed with brain cancer in 1947, decided that her life was just as precious as the first child.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 10:05 AM  

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

We all have much to repent and for which to seek forgiveness

Blogger The Observer April 12, 2013 10:05 AM  

@JD:

Churchianity at its most disgusting.

Agape before logos at all costs.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 10:09 AM  

The media went apesh&t about Trayvon Martin. It was on every magazine cover in the grocery store check-out lane.

How many BLACK babies were slaughtered in cold blood by Gosnell?

The racist part of me says, "Eff it. If blacks want to genocide themselves out of existence, let them!"

Blogger IM2L844 April 12, 2013 10:10 AM  

And there's an example of why libertarians can't win elections.

You will often find loud-mouthed Atheist Libertines crouched behind the cloak of Libertarianism. And, yes, that usually turns out to be a big problem for the Libertarian image.

Blogger Bogey April 12, 2013 10:10 AM  

Conservatives have lost a lot of social issues to pop culture except for abortion. Even the most hardcore leftists when faced with the evidence (pictures) will be sickened by the facts. My view of it was only hardened after I saw the Documentary, Lake of Fire. Seeing an abortionist re-assemble a butchered fetus like a 3d puzzle to make sure he "got all the pieces out" was one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:12 AM  

75% of all abortions occur within the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is no consciousness in the fetus. When they can't feel pain. When they have no sense of themselves because the required elements of the nervous system do not exist. In other words, we have no person.

Performing an abortion at this point in the pregnancy is no more a moral hazard than removing a piece of tissue from the body during surgery. It is no more a moral hazard than discarding left over frozen embryo after IVF.

And anyone who suggests that any abortion is the equivalent of placing a 21 year old Jewess in a gas chamber and killing them has lost all sense of what it means to be moral, to have a moral compass and quite clearly morally suspect themselves.

It's that simple.

Anonymous RINO April 12, 2013 10:13 AM  

Real Libertarian, as clearly indicated by their name, is a real libertarian and is protecting the mother's right to pay someone to have her property's spine snipped. The rest of you are clearly frauds.

Anonymous Lysander Spooner April 12, 2013 10:13 AM  

@ VD

Hear, Hear !!

Abortion is an abomination, of course so is this FemiNazi Culture.

Anonymous Roundtine April 12, 2013 10:15 AM  

Well said. I remember seeing abortion photos many years ago, they're easily found on the Internet if you want to find them. Amazing how many Holocaust and war photos we see, but the images of the unborn holocaust are hidden away.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:17 AM  

When they have no sense of themselves because the required elements of the nervous system do not exist. In other words, we have no person.

What if someone used anesthesia to make you unconscious and drugs to shut down your nervous system? Would it be ok to kill you because you wouldn't be aware and wouldn't feel pain?

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 10:17 AM  

A. Man - serious question ...legally, morally, ethically ... could someone have killed your fetus at 12 weeks without killing you the person?

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 10:20 AM  

Spot on, Vox!

Anonymous Sigyn April 12, 2013 10:20 AM  

75% of all abortions occur within the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is no consciousness in the fetus. When they can't feel pain. When they have no sense of themselves because the required elements of the nervous system do not exist. In other words, we have no person.

By this reasoning, do you agree that it is acceptable to kill someone who is unconscious?

Performing an abortion at this point in the pregnancy is no more a moral hazard than removing a piece of tissue from the body during surgery. It is no more a moral hazard than discarding left over frozen embryo after IVF.

By what standard do you apply the word "moral"?

And anyone who suggests that any abortion is the equivalent of placing a 21 year old Jewess in a gas chamber and killing them has lost all sense of what it means to be moral, to have a moral compass and quite clearly morally suspect themselves.

Explain why killing an inconvenient post-birth person is any less "moral" than killing an inconvenient fetus.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 10:20 AM  

(Watch how A. Mann avoids talking about Dr. Kermit at all costs. He simply has to redirect the conversation to his leftist talking points. His entire worldview depends on it. I bet money he refuses to click on the link to see the photos of what his gruesome ideology creates. I also like how someone who says "two gay men can make a baby" is giving us all scientific and medical lectures.)

Anonymous a.thought April 12, 2013 10:21 AM  

Does an aborted baby go to heaven? If so, then we're doing it a favour. If not, then God is cruel and unfair.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:21 AM  

"What if someone used anesthesia to make you unconscious and drugs to shut down your nervous system? Would it be ok to kill you because you wouldn't be aware and wouldn't feel pain?"

You can't shut down a nervous system with drugs.

Blogger The Observer April 12, 2013 10:22 AM  

He's flat-out wrong anyways. Brain waves have been detected as early as 6-7 weeks. By 8 weeks all major organs - the brain included - are distinct and functioning.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:22 AM  

"A. Man - serious question ...legally, morally, ethically ... could someone have killed your fetus at 12 weeks without killing you the person?"

They would have killed a human fetus., not a human person, particularly in the sense that person's have specific inherent rights.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:23 AM  

"Explain why killing an inconvenient post-birth person is any less "moral" than killing an inconvenient fetus."

One is a living person, one is not. One has inherent rights, one does not.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 10:23 AM  

"They would have killed a human fetus., not a human person"

Would YOU have died or not?

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 10:24 AM  

Performing an abortion at this point in the pregnancy is no more a moral hazard than removing a piece of tissue from the body during surgery. It is no more a moral hazard than discarding left over frozen embryo after IVF.

VD asked you what your morals were based on. You replied they were developed by your father and slightly modified by you.

Let me make this clear to you. Nobody cares what you or your dad thinks. It certainly is not binding on anyone else. Stop your stupid gibbering.

I find IVF problematic because of those discarded embryos.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:25 AM  

One is a living person, one is not. One has inherent rights, one does not.

What is the scientific definition of "life"?

Anonymous RedJack April 12, 2013 10:25 AM  

A. Man,
Why?
Why does one have rights, and not the other? Where do those rights come from?

The few inches of the birth canal? The ability to talk?

If you are pro abotion, then you have no logical reason to object to any sort of genocide. Because by the standards of those who do the killing, they were not human and had no rights.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:26 AM  

I find IVF problematic because of those discarded embryos.

IVF is evil.

Anonymous DrW April 12, 2013 10:26 AM  

Truth. Excellent article. Amen...

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 10:27 AM  

You should put a link to this on the page somewhere so people can go back and read and refresh their memories lest they forget.

Paid for an abortion for my first girlfriend back in 1977. Child would be 36 this year.

May God have mercy on my soul.

No Name Please

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 10:28 AM  

You can't shut down a nervous system with drugs? Bullshit. Get out, you lying piece of crap. It's one thing to come in here and spew your leftist, atheist nonsense. It's another thing when you deliberately lie to defend your point, because otherwise, it is absolutely logically and morally indefensible.

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 10:28 AM  

We heard you A. Man. Nobody cares what you think. Shut up, and come back when you find a real moral system.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:29 AM  

"Let me make this clear to you. Nobody cares what you or your dad thinks. It certainly is not binding on anyone else. Stop your stupid gibbering."

What moral code could be said to be "binding" on everyone without the help of, "well, I say it is"?

Anonymous rocker April 12, 2013 10:31 AM  

Vox; just curious why you went swishy?  Obviously, if there were no women had abortions, there’d be no abortions and no abortion doctors.  So the proper analogy would be Women who get abortions = Hitler  and the doctors/nurses  = Totenkopfverbander.  Why’d you wuss out on this?

Anonymous The Bible April 12, 2013 10:31 AM  

"May God have mercy on my soul."

Anonymous: "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Anonymous RINO April 12, 2013 10:31 AM  

If you are pro abotion, then you have no logical reason to object to any sort of genocide. Because by the standards of those who do the killing, they were not human and had no rights.

That's actually a good point, A.Man should respond to that. Does he think a society is able to engage in genocide if a majority of that society defines "person" and who has rights differently from us? Say, for example, that the majority believe Jews aren't people and don't have the associated benefits. If not, why? Why is his definition of person and rights the correct one?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:31 AM  

"If you are pro abotion, then you have no logical reason to object to any sort of genocide. Because by the standards of those who do the killing, they were not human and had no rights."

This presumes that Person A with their morals and standards must accept the validity of Person B's morals and standards. Why is that necessary?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:32 AM  

"We heard you A. Man. Nobody cares what you think. Shut up, and come back when you find a real moral system."

My moral system is every bit as legitimate as yours.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 10:33 AM  

We have no binding moral code to listen to A. Man.

By his own logic, we should ignore him.

Anonymous rabbithunter April 12, 2013 10:34 AM  

This is where Vox and the Ilk let loose their inner rabbits. "Eek! Look at the pictures!"

Anonymous Daniel April 12, 2013 10:35 AM  

Stilicho
We all have much to repent and for which to seek forgiveness

Yes, this. At a secondary, but more personal level, I believe that the visual shock of abortion is not only a gut-wrenching example of sin, but also an echo of the very nature of sin.

How can one ever hope to clean that brutal disaster? A man cannot. Sins like scarlet, indeed. Yet the Lamb of God makes them like wool.

Repent.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:35 AM  

So, A. Man, do you support banning abortions after twelve weeks?

Anonymous RedJack April 12, 2013 10:36 AM  

A. Man

Then was the Great Famine caused by the Soviets wrong? It killed millions, but by the standards of the State was totally moral and legal.

You brought up "The fetus is not a person and has no rights."

In every society that has engaged in mass killings, they first say those being killed don't have the right to live. They often make it a moral imperitive to kill the other group.

If all morals are relative, then you have no basis to say "The Soviet's where wrong in starving the Ukraine". Or that "The USA was wrong in killing off the Plains Indians". In both societies, it was viewed by the State as the correct moral choice, and those being killed had no rights.

Do you support the right of a society to kill those it chooses to IF that matches their morals? If not, why?

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 10:37 AM  

And anyone who suggests that any abortion is the equivalent of placing a 21 year old Jewess in a gas chamber and killing them has lost all sense of what it means to be moral, to have a moral compass and quite clearly morally suspect themselves.

Given your support for murdering unborn children, your opinion on morality is less relevant to any decent human being than Heinrich Himmler's. In moral terms, you are a monster.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:37 AM  

"So, A. Man, do you support banning abortions after twelve weeks?"

I'd push it to 16 and support it.

Blogger JartStar April 12, 2013 10:37 AM  

a.thought: If not, then God is cruel and unfair.

Why do you think that?

Anonymous RINO April 12, 2013 10:38 AM  

Do you support the right of a society to kill those it chooses to IF that matches their morals? If not, why?

Since A.Man is a prototypical liberal, I find it hard to believe he isn't a cultural relativist.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 10:38 AM  

You assume with we Christians with our morals and standards must accept the validity of your morals and standards. Why is that necessary? Why are you even here? By your own logic, you must shut up.

Blogger Nate April 12, 2013 10:39 AM  

"You can't shut down a nervous system with drugs."

Yes.

One can. In fact its done all the time.

Which drugs would you like to use and which nervous system would you like to shut down?

I don't think you should comment about things when you are this ignorant about them.

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 10:40 AM  

My moral system is every bit as legitimate as yours.

Look everybody, a talking monkey. Ain't he cute?

Anonymous DrTorch April 12, 2013 10:40 AM  

A.Man will lose the rational argument b/c science and logic are 100% in opposition to his preference. He will simply deny the logic and them resort to rhetoric (that appeals to his emotions, not many others').

I've seen this many times, as I did "listen" to the pro-choice supporters. But there's a point where you're wasting your time listening to the same irrationality.

Anonymous Anonymous April 12, 2013 10:40 AM  

"I'd push it to 16 and support it."

"75% of all abortions occur within the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is no consciousness in the fetus. "

By his own logic, he'd murder someone with a consciousness -- someone who by HIS OWN definition, has the right to live.

A. Mann = concentration camp guard.

Blogger Fred April 12, 2013 10:40 AM  

Awesome wonderful post Vox! My hats off. Support this position 100%!

Blogger Nate April 12, 2013 10:41 AM  

A.Man:

Is the fetus human? science, via DNA, says yes.

Is the fetus alive? Science again says yes.

Thus science says it is alive and human and therefore it has human rights.

To argue otherwise is anti-science.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:41 AM  

"Given your support for murdering unborn children, your opinion on morality is less relevant to any decent human being than Heinrich Himmler's. In moral terms, you are a monster."

I don't support killing unborn children. I support the right of women to have an abortion prior to the fetus gaining personhood status.

And your view on what is moral and immoral is yours and yours alone. You won't be surprised to hear that I think your morality is based on a lie and fantasy and extraordinarily dangerous as a model for anyone else, including you.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:41 AM  

I'd push it to 16 and support it.

Why 16?

Anonymous Daniel April 12, 2013 10:41 AM  

An aside: what a fitting and grave conclusion to EWW week.

Anonymous Edjamacator April 12, 2013 10:43 AM  

"A branch of Planned Parenthood in Eureka, California is holding a prayer vigil in support of abortion. The 40 Days of Prayer Campaign: Supporting Women Everywhere has sprang up in opposition to the pro-life vigil 40 Days of Prayer for Life.

Who do they plan to pray to? Molech?

Anonymous rabbithunter April 12, 2013 10:43 AM  

"Given your support for murdering unborn children, your opinion on morality is less relevant to any decent human being than Heinrich Himmler's. In moral terms, you are a monster."

Racist! Homophobe! Misogynist with a small penis!

That's what you might as well be screeching. This nothing more than rabbit pellets.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:43 AM  

I don't support killing unborn children. I support the right of women to have an abortion prior to the fetus gaining personhood status.

When does it gain person hood status, from whence does it gain it, and can it be revoked?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:44 AM  

"Thus science says it is alive and human and therefore it has human rights."

Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot be taken away. Societies do this regularly and you support it too.

The question is: is it a human person? A human life? Yes. A human person? No.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 10:44 AM  

Anonymous, pick a Name via Name/URL please.

Anonymous Raymur Bardroth April 12, 2013 10:45 AM  

"You can't shut down a nervous system with drugs."

Yes you can. Stage 4 Anesthesia.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:45 AM  

"I'd push it to 16 and support it.

Why 16?"

This appears to be the theoretical edge at which it may end up possessing some sort of self awareness and we can begin to talk about it as though it might possess personhood.

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 10:45 AM  

My moral system is every bit as legitimate as yours.

Moral idiot. So if I make my own moral system up, and it is "every bit as legitimate as yours", I can make anything moral. You do realize the implication here, right

Seriously A. Man, you are a monster.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:46 AM  

Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot be taken away.

And this is ths logical conclusion of atheism.

Well done.

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 10:47 AM  

A. Man:

You claim drugs can't shut down a nervous system. There's a little thing we like to call neurotoxins.

Idiot.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 10:47 AM  

Racist! Homophobe! Misogynist with a small penis! That's what you might as well be screeching. This nothing more than rabbit pellets.

Of course. One can only use rhetoric when dealing with the rhetorically limited. A Man is incapable of dialectic. To speak to a rabbit, you must speak lapine.

He only holds his position because the group to which he belongs tells him what it is. He won't change his mind because this is not his group, but when his group tells him exactly the same thing, then he will be convinced of it. He is wholly incapable of thinking for himself, which is why he never presents any arguments we haven't heard before.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:47 AM  

"Moral idiot. So if I make my own moral system up, and it is "every bit as legitimate as yours", I can make anything moral. You do realize the implication here, right"

When did anyone not make up there own moral system?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:49 AM  

"Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot be taken away.

And this is ths logical conclusion of atheism."

So you oppose the death penalty as well as any for of incarceration? Both are examples of removing a person's rights.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 10:49 AM  

This appears to be the theoretical edge at which it may end up possessing some sort of self awareness and we can begin to talk about it as though it might possess personhood.

By this metric, we can rationalize aborting you. You have no more self-awareness or logical ability than my dog. And he died several years ago.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:50 AM  

"
He only holds his position because the group to which he belongs tells him what it is. He won't change his mind because this is not his group, but when his group tells him exactly the same thing, then he will be convinced of it. He is wholly incapable of thinking for himself, which is why he never presents any arguments we haven't heard before."

As though your arguments are original or not heard before. Please, love yourself much? Funny.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 10:50 AM  

The left wants you dead, but they're willing to compromise by starting with your unborn children.

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 10:50 AM  

When did anyone not make up there own moral system?

When they follow the one prescribed by the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Anonymous Curlytop April 12, 2013 10:50 AM  

I think we determined that logic and A.Man are not compatible. This is a poster who protested vigorously over the use of crass words regarding minorities in another thread, which may be impolite at best and offensive at their worst. However, by his own rhetoric, he has NO problem supporting the mass genocide of minorities bc hey, if society deems them "not a person" who are we to judge?

Vox is correct. This person is literally spoon-fed what he's supposed to think.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 10:51 AM  

A.Man's tirade provides an object lesson in the systematic evil of the left.

First we see the promotion of the false axiom to serve as a basis for the preferred action:

75% of all abortions occur within the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is no consciousness in the fetus. When they can't feel pain. When they have no sense of themselves because the required elements of the nervous system do not exist. In other words, we have no person.

Second, we see the desired action justified with the false axiom:

Performing an abortion at this point in the pregnancy is no more a moral hazard than removing a piece of tissue from the body during surgery. It is no more a moral hazard than discarding left over frozen embryo after IVF.

Finally, we see the counterattack designed to put opponents on the defensive and distract them away from exposing the false axiom and the horrific action it is used to justify:

And anyone who suggests that any abortion is the equivalent of placing a 21 year old Jewess in a gas chamber and killing them has lost all sense of what it means to be moral, to have a moral compass and quite clearly morally suspect themselves.

Blather, rinse, repeat.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 10:52 AM  

"Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot be taken away."

The government gives, the government takes away.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:53 AM  

"By this metric, we can rationalize aborting you. You have no more self-awareness or logical ability than my dog. And he died several years ago."

Did you teach your dog to spew ad hominem arguments just like you can? Please tell me you have more than this to offer. Please tell use you have more than the "neener, neener, neener" argument to rely on.

Anonymous TheExpat April 12, 2013 10:53 AM  

So you oppose the death penalty as well as any for of incarceration? Both are examples of removing a person's rights.

Well, someone clearly does not understand Natural Law and it's contract.

Anonymous Sigyn April 12, 2013 10:54 AM  

My moral system is every bit as legitimate as yours.

Then we'll apply your system to you. In all other cases, we won't presume "that Person A with their morals and standards must accept the validity of Person B's morals and standards".

Now I'm going to take a nap. I feel like roadkill, I'm sleepy, and I keep throwing up. Nobody shoot me while I'm asleep, kk?

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 10:54 AM  

So you oppose the death penalty as well as any for of incarceration? Both are examples of removing a person's rights.

I do oppose the death penalty, because history shows that it's lunacy to permit the state to kill its own citizens.

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 10:54 AM  

A. Man:

Your moral system is crap compared to ours, because your moral system is explicitly relative based on one man's whims. Ours, we claim, comes from God, the supreme being who created the universe and enforces it's rules (His Game, His Rules).

Your moral system crumbles as soon as someone says "I, as a man like yourself, oppose the rules you came up with."

Ours? Try saying that to God.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:55 AM  

"When did anyone not make up there own moral system?

When they follow the one prescribed by the Lord, Jesus Christ."

Just a person, nothing more. Furthermore, how do you conclude that this person's moral system is worth following? You decided it was didn't you. Move along.

Anonymous rabbithunter April 12, 2013 10:55 AM  

"He only holds his position because the group to which he belongs tells him what it is."

How is that any different from Christians. Except that Christians tell each other that the Bible is the position and, to justify it, that it's the word of God. As if that could ever be tested.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 10:57 AM  

"Ours, we claim, comes from God, the supreme being who created the universe and enforces it's rules (His Game, His Rules)"

Oh please, enough with the fantasy deities and their "moral" claims. You either decide to follow a moral code or you do not. That makes the moral system yours and no one else's.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 10:59 AM  

A. Man is Exhibit A in why the media absolutely must black out any coverage of Goswell. Not only is it a brutal display of where their policies lead, but can you imagine the political ramification of thousands of A. Man's protesting 'being human doesn't mean you have rights!'? The political suicide would be devastating across the spectrum and have implications far beyond the pro-abortion/pro-life debate.

Anonymous Ioweenie April 12, 2013 10:59 AM  

A. Man: I'd push it to 16 and support it.

On what basis?

Thank you all who have shown empathy for the sinner and rejoice in repentance.

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 11:00 AM  

There's a reason we Christians don't use that argument against Muslims who want to play jihad. At least their system is based on a complete theological framework.

Anonymous Not Ace April 12, 2013 11:00 AM  

"As if that could ever be tested"

Why can't it be tested?

Test: Is it OK to murder someone?

(flips pages in Bible)

No, it is not.

You question the validity of my test?

Test 2: You flip to same pages I just read.

Yup, says same thing.

Unless you have some weird non-standard definition of "tested"?

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:02 AM  

"Furthermore, how do you conclude that this person's moral system is worth following? You decided it was didn't you."

Fine. They chose a moral system that embraces life. You chose one that assigns no fundamental value to life at all, yet for some mysterious reason choose to worship government, which is nothing more than a lifeless system invented by humans.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:03 AM  

"A. Man is Exhibit A in why the media absolutely must black out any coverage of Goswell."

The New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, Fox News, etc, etc, etc all covered this story.

Blogger JartStar April 12, 2013 11:03 AM  

As if that could ever be tested.

Actually it was tested repeatedly throughout the Bible by the miracles of the prophets and Jesus. See 1 Kings 18:20-46.

Furthermore, how do you conclude that this person's moral system is worth following? You decided it was didn't you. Move along.

We did not just wake up one day and vote for God out of the myriad of other choices with no influence from God as the Bible clearly states that He draws His Children to Him. The amount of influence is the debate, not if there is influence.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:04 AM  

"
Fine. They chose a moral system that embraces life. You chose one that assigns no fundamental value to life at all, yet for some mysterious reason choose to worship government, which is nothing more than a lifeless system invented by humans."

Now you are just incoherent.

Anonymous RINO April 12, 2013 11:04 AM  

It's pretty easy to imagine what would happen if A.Man was taken and placed into the Nazi regime, the Ottoman regime, or the Hutu regime.

Scary.

Blogger Giraffe April 12, 2013 11:05 AM  

You have no more self-awareness or logical ability than my dog. And he died several years ago.

Nothing like a good dog.

This exchange has helped me understand why some people conclude that animals are more valuable than their fellow humans. My dog is a worthless, barking, needless-expense-to-feed crap factory and he still has more redeeming qualities than A. Man.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:05 AM  

"We did not just wake up one day and vote for God out of the myriad of other choices"

Yes you did.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:06 AM  

"Now you are just incoherent."

Interesting argumentative tactic -- an appeal to your own idiocy.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 11:07 AM  

As though your arguments are original or not heard before.

Yes, they are. That is why you are here. That is why your kind dislike me so much. And, as a matter of fact, that is why my original hypotheses and arguments are appearing in various science journals like Nature and sites like Wikipedia.

You are here every day in a futile attempt to try to counteract the effect I have on others, but you are wholly incapable of it because you have no rational arguments, you have nothing but rhetoric.

You're not only a moral monster, you are a failure.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 11:07 AM  

Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot be taken away.

So much for those inherent rights he referenced earlier. Or, to put it in terms the rabbit might understand: this little bunny thinks it's OK to murder Jews as long as it gives him warm fuzzies inside.

Blogger JD Curtis April 12, 2013 11:08 AM  

75% of all abortions occur within the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy when there is no consciousness in the fetus. When they can't feel pain. When they have no sense of themselves because the required elements of the nervous system do not exist. In other words, we have no person



Since when has neurological development determined personhood? Your own timeline is off by 4 weeks given that sex can be determined at eight weeks of pregnancy and being that technology generally improves over time, further advances will only reduce these timelines.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 11:09 AM  

Oh please, enough with the fantasy deities and their "moral" claims. You either decide to follow a moral code or you do not. That makes the moral system yours and no one else's.

Notice how our rabbit du jour doesn't understand the difference between subjective and objective. He really is that limited.

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 11:09 AM  

LOL! A. Man calls Noah B. incoherent.

That's funny. Your moral system is internally incoherent, A. Man.

Again, there's a reason we don't use that line of argument against Muslims. It's because they actually have a decent logical claim to their moral system. You should be embarrassed that even Muslims (hey! God-believer loonies!) can compute logic better than you and your atheist ilk.

Blogger JD Curtis April 12, 2013 11:10 AM  

'..the Wikipedia entry for “Kermit Gosnell” is being considered for deletion..

One of the reasons “this article is being considered for deletion”? “His case has not received national attention. It is a local multiple-murder story in Pennsylvania, nothing more.” Link

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:11 AM  

"Yes, they are. That is why you are here."

LOL...No, they are not. Not where abortion is concerned. Yours is an old, worn out argument. Some call it the "The God Argument". And Please...Wikipedia?

You can no more offer an original argument on the issue of abortion than your former pet can offer anything at this point.

Vox Day: Old!

"because you have no rational arguments, you have nothing but rhetoric."

Said the man who resorted to the tired "nazi" and ad hominem arguments. Funny.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:11 AM  

"Or, to put it in terms the rabbit might understand: this little bunny thinks it's OK to murder Jews as long as it gives him warm fuzzies inside."

Once the left realizes that those killed in the Holocaust were not supporters of sodomy and gay marriage, they may begin to see things in a different light.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 11:12 AM  

Just a person, nothing more. Furthermore, how do you conclude that this person's moral system is worth following? You decided it was didn't you. Move along.

Why do you follow the moral system you espouse?

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 11:13 AM  

A. Man,

To bring it around to a subject you feel passionate about.

If the majority of people in this country felt that it was morally just to kill a black man for showing an aggressive reaction to a racial slur, would you believe such was justified?

Why or why not.

Anonymous Ioweenie April 12, 2013 11:14 AM  

A. Man: This appears to be the theoretical edge at which it may end up possessing some sort of self awareness and we can begin to talk about it as though it might possess personhood.

I see your response now. By your reasoning, whoever has deemed this to be personhood (self-awareness) is your authority. This is subjective, a moving target - as is viability. What other metric will you chose to arbitrarily and artificially defend whimsy?

Ponder this: if a woman wants a baby, it is fully human (a person) not only the moment she finds she is pregnant, the moment she has sex hoping to get pregnant. If a woman doesn't want the baby, any reason to abort it is valid, most especially, "I don't want it," or "this isn't a good time."

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:14 AM  

"Notice how our rabbit du jour doesn't understand the difference between subjective and objective. He really is that limited."

All it takes for a moral code to be "objective" is that it be written down and outlined. Nothing more. I could provide you with an objective moral code in you need one (it seems you may at least need a better one.)

Just because you claim your moral code is delivered from some "god" proposed centuries ago and constantly revised over the years by humans and for which there is no more than speculation to support its existence....well, let's just say your moral code really on rests on your desire to believe it might be delivered from a deity....perhaps the simplest, easiest, most common claim ever made.

Anonymous Outlaw X April 12, 2013 11:15 AM  

Damn, that was good, no that was true. I am not going to brag on you Vox, that came from above.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:15 AM  

"What other metric will you chose to arbitrarily and artificially defend whimsy? "

The bible sometimes.

Anonymous jm April 12, 2013 11:15 AM  

Johnny Cash said it best: "God's gonna cut 'em down."

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 11:16 AM  

Come now A. Man, let's talk about relative versus objective morality and their legitimacy. Please answer my question.

Anonymous Josh April 12, 2013 11:16 AM  

By the way, we finally found one of those black doctors everyone was talking about earlier this week. In this case, the black rapist is the lesser evil.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:17 AM  

Said the man who resorted to the tired "nazi" and ad hominem arguments. Funny.

Here's what makes Vox's argument distinctly non-tired: comparisons to Nazis are usually used as hyperbole.

But there's no hyperbole here, and I expect that no one will get an apology out of Vox by claiming that his comparison of abortionists to Nazis is outrageous and unacceptable.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:18 AM  

"If the majority of people in this country felt that it was morally just to kill a black man for showing an aggressive reaction to a racial slur, would you believe such was justified?"

What kind of "aggressive action"?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:18 AM  

"But there's no hyperbole here, and I expect that no one will get an apology out of Vox by claiming that his comparison of abortionists to Nazis is outrageous and unacceptable."

It's not just hyperbole, it's fantasy.

Anonymous Wendy April 12, 2013 11:20 AM  

He's (A. Man) flat-out wrong anyways. Brain waves have been detected as early as 6-7 weeks. By 8 weeks all major organs - the brain included - are distinct and functioning.

This. A thousand times over. A. Man either speaks from ignorance or he's lying. Either way, be warned about him.

Seriously, why do you hate science, A. Man? You should know the definition of life, yet you deny it to the unborn. It is alive. There is cellular respiration. The DNA is human. Abortion is killing a person.

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:20 AM  

"It's not just hyperbole, it's fantasy."

Math is hard.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 11:21 AM  

Answer my question, A.Man:
Why do you follow the moral system you espouse?

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 11:22 AM  

All it takes for a moral code to be "objective" is that it be written down and outlined. Nothing more.

As I said, you don't understand the difference between objective and subjective. You're conclusively wrong.

Here are three non-rhetorical questions for you, A Man.

1) Do you believe you have persuaded even a single reader of the thousands who come here that you are correct and I am incorrect?

2) If so, how many?

2) If not, why do you keep trying? I mean, I have shown you to be factually wrong on more than a dozen occasions, disproved nearly every argument you have presented, and no one appears to find your arguments at all persuasive. So, what is the point?

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 11:22 AM  

Well,A. Man, your example was destroying the ability of the slurrer to use his hands. But let's take it up a notch.

Any aggressive action at all. Body language. Verbal response. Actual physical confrontation. If a majority of people thought it was morally acceptable to kill a black man for any reaction other than submission and acceptance of the slur, would that be acceptable? Why or why not.

Anonymous G. Veil April 12, 2013 11:23 AM  

@A. Man

Why 16 weeks, by your own admission this is only a theoretical capacity for self awareness. Could they possess awareness at 15 weeks, or what about 15 weeks and 6 days. You entire justification for murder rests upon an arbitrary line of 16 weeks because they might have awareness. Perhaps your right, perhaps they're not human until 16 weeks. Maybe me and Vox and millions of others are wrong. If that is the case then I concede I would have so unjustly forced millions of women into the horror of being a mother. Consider the alternative, consider for a moment that you're wrong. If that is the case then you will have encouraged and enabled the unjust slaughter of millions. For my part I can live with the former, I can't with the latter, if you can we have reached an impasse. Though I admit if you can indeed sleep at night I find that Vox's Himmler comparison was quite just, I'm sure he slept just fine too.

Anonymous Soga April 12, 2013 11:25 AM  

Keep in mind that as an atheist, A. Man defines "person" in the legal U.S. Federal Government sense. He is incapable of understanding morality as separated from legality. To him, State is God.

The concept of natural law is lost on him, because he believes that "laws" and "morals" -- all those things we have human words for -- are completely man-made. So anything goes, so long as it's the flavor of the month -ism.

In fact, I wonder if he would believe gravity was a man-made phenomenon if we had gravity drives in spaceships.

Anonymous Wendy April 12, 2013 11:27 AM  

@AmyJ: Bull. When having to make an arduous decision between taking care of your existing children and dying with a decent chance that the child that kills you wont survive either (and honestly, that's most common diagnosis for therapeutic abortion) how do you decide which child you love more?

Which child the mother loves more? The older child is still alive either way. Doctors can be wrong. And if a father dies defending one child while the other child is elsewhere is he faced with the same question? After all the child may die anyway even if he dies protecting him or her.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 11:29 AM  

Soga, we shall see. The key to people like A. Man is to force them to square their abstract rabbitthink with their individual passions. I look forward to A. Man's explanation as to how all codes of morality are equally legitimate but that it's universally and unquestionably wrong - no matter how many people say otherwise - to go around lynching black men for standing up for themselves.

Anonymous Toby Temple April 12, 2013 11:29 AM  

LOL...No, they are not. Not where abortion is concerned.

Prove it, A. Boy.

Anonymous TJIC April 12, 2013 11:31 AM  

Behold the difference between clever modern progressives:

@A Man: Simply because it is human it does not automatically possess rights that cannot
be taken away.

and horrificly patriarchal dead white men:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life

I'd rather be a slave under Jefferson, with all his flaws, than a fetus under Progressives.

Anonymous Outlaw X April 12, 2013 11:31 AM  

disproved nearly every argument you have presented, and no one appears to find your arguments at all persuasive. So, what is the point?

Asking the Devil what is the point is like... well asking the Devil what is the point. When you know you already lost why care about the point?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:32 AM  

"1) Do you believe you have persuaded even a single reader of the thousands who come here that you are correct and I am incorrect?"
Yes

"2) If so, how many?"
I don't know

"I have shown you to be factually wrong on more than a dozen occasions, disproved nearly every argument you have presented, and no one appears to find your arguments at all persuasive. So, what is the point?"

I've always found it entertaining to watch someone INSIST they've won the argument. It's a sign they are struggling to even impact the other person's argument. Needless to say, I find your premise lacking.

However, the point of commenting here at my whim is to remind you and others that think like you that not only are you often wrong, but too often offensively wrong. For example, your insistence that abortion is murder and morally worse than the nazi's attempt to exterminate a race isn't just wrong, but silly like a little boy is silly when he lies about wetting his own bed.

Anonymous RINO April 12, 2013 11:34 AM  

A.Man, do you believe literally any action is defensible if it's within a moral/philosophical/political system approved by a majority of the population and endorsed by the state?

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:35 AM  

"and horrificly patriarchal dead white men:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life"

The founders regularly supported the taking of rights from fellow citizens. The supported various punishments for crimes that included taking away rights.

Anonymous Daniel April 12, 2013 11:36 AM  

A. Man, how long have you had a penchant for silly little boys?

Anonymous Noah B. April 12, 2013 11:36 AM  

"It's a sign they are struggling to even impact the other person's argument."

There is never any hope of persuading the greatest of fools, so the argument is not really about them. But no one here expects you to understand that.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:36 AM  

"A.Man, do you believe literally any action is defensible if it's within a moral/philosophical/political system approved by a majority of the population and endorsed by the state?"

Whether I defend or support an action has nothing to do with what the state or a majority of my fellow citizens have to say about it.

Anonymous Alexander April 12, 2013 11:37 AM  

A. Man, I know I've revealed the trap to Soga but I still expect you to answer the question. I had the decency to clarify for you what 'aggression' is.

Anonymous VD April 12, 2013 11:38 AM  

I've always found it entertaining to watch someone INSIST they've won the argument. It's a sign they are struggling to even impact the other person's argument. Needless to say, I find your premise lacking.

I know I've won the argument. You're like a guy running around in the stands, claiming that he beat the Cowboys as they throw the ball into the end zone again. You don't even have any arguments beyond crying about how wrong and offensive and silly mine are.

Those are assertions. Not arguments. There is nothing to impact.

For example, your insistence that arguing abortion is murder and morally worse than the nazis' attempt to exterminate a race isn't just wrong, but silly like a little boy is silly when he lies about wetting his own bed, isn't just wrong, but is silly like a little boy is silly when he lies about wetting his own bed.

QED.

Blogger JartStar April 12, 2013 11:42 AM  

"We did not just wake up one day and vote for God out of the myriad of other choices"

Yes you did.


Not if Christianity is correct, but assuming it is wrong then my vote or your vote for a moral system has no more weight than one's choice of favorite color.

Anonymous G. Veil April 12, 2013 11:42 AM  

@ A.Man

I don't know why you take such offense at how we view or feel about certain issues. I'm not in the slightest bit offended by your views or arguments, although that might be because I don't feel threatened by nonsense, but hey you can't always be right.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:44 AM  

"I know I've won the argument."

Well, I'm so happy for you. It turns out, I know you haven't won the argument. So there we are.

And, crying about how wrong and offensive your arguments are isn't the case I'm making. It's merely a matter of pointing out the obvious for the sake of reiteration.

You'll think about it later and get it. I have confidence in you.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:46 AM  

"Not if Christianity is correct, but assuming it is wrong then my vote or your vote for a moral system has no more weight than one's choice of favorite color."

Why are you so concerned that a moral system of yours has weight with others in order to be valid? Is it not enough that it is the system that guides your own actions?

A moral system may have weight with others. It may not. But most importantly, a moral system is something most important to an individual. The rest is politics.

Anonymous G. Veil April 12, 2013 11:48 AM  

Hey A. Man, do you mind responding, it's no fun if you don't even fight back, I feel like I'm playing games with my three year old nephew, though I concede he is mildly more articulate than you, at least he tries to communicate before throwing a hissy fit when something doesn't go his way. You seem to have skipped step 1

Anonymous RC April 12, 2013 11:49 AM  

This is powerfully done VD.

JER 32:30 "The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but provoke me with what their hands have made, declares the LORD. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done--they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin."

How can a society become so blind to pure evil as the Israelites did? As we are?

Anonymous Martel April 12, 2013 11:52 AM  

The Gosnell case has brought me from moderate pro-life to damn near rabidly so. I opposed abortion but didn't give it a lot of thought. Now it's evil is so clear to me that it knaws at me.

And a similar thing would happen to the masses if they knew about it. Therefore the media, so eager to have a "national conversation on gun violence" after pounding Newton news into our heads will only occasionally touch on this story as little as they can get away with it. A "national conversation" on the biological realities of abortion? Never.

I'm fully aware that not all abortion clinics are as overtly craven as Gosnell's. However, "moderate" abortionists find it necessary to sweep cases like Gosnell's under the rug in order to defend their own position. If you corner one, they'll criticize Gosnell, but they'd rather nobody knew about him and object to those like him only under public scrutiny. This does not prove that their position is wrong, but it does prove the shakiness of their moral code.

Anonymous Stilicho April 12, 2013 11:52 AM  

silly like a little boy is silly when he lies about wetting his own bed.

Intellectual incontinence is the hallmark of leftism.

A.Man, answer my question.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:52 AM  

"Hey A. Man, do you mind responding, it's no fun if you don't even fight back,"

Why would I respond to ad hominem?

Anonymous Jill April 12, 2013 11:52 AM  

"Let me list all the libertarians who disagree with you:

Ayn Rand
Murray Rothbard
Walter Block
Harry Browne"

In answer to why she wasn't a libertarian, Ayn Rand said, "Because libertarians are a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people: they plagiarize my ideas when that fits their purpose, and denounce me in a more vicious manner than any communist publication when that fits their purpose. They’re lower than any pragmatists, and what they hold against Objectivism is morality. They want an amoral political program."

As Ayn Rand was adamantly opposed to calling herself a libertarian, you can go ahead and strike her from the list. Then you'll be left with three. Even though I call myself a libertarian, I tend to agree with Ayn Rand in this regard. Where you find a political party, there you find morality sacrificed to the god of ideology. And the supporters of political parties must learn to cope with cognitive dissonance in order to remain sane. This is the way it is with abortion in this country. We've collectively decided to hold to an outer ideology that is dissonant with what we know to be immoral. I believe it is impossible to sustain this dissonance permanently. That is also my hope.

Anonymous A. Man April 12, 2013 11:53 AM  

"Why do you follow the moral system you espouse?"

The same reason you follow the moral system you espouse: I believe it the correct one.

Anonymous rubbermallet April 12, 2013 11:54 AM  

AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM



bbbut rape!

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