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Wednesday, April 17, 2013

Jesus loves you. God, probably not so much.

Comedians, gay rights activists, and "accomplished journalists" are probably not the right people to consult when you wish to contemplate Christian theology. Meanwhile, the New York Times slanders millions of Christians by falsely and absurdly misrepresenting both their faith and their attitude towards a particular group of notoriously unrepentant sinners.
The crowd laughs a little nervously when Minchin, an outspoken atheist, begins to sing, “I love Jesus, I love Jesus.” They bought tickets to a comedy show, not a religious revival. Minchin prompts the audience to join him. “Who do you love?” he asks. “Sing it!” Soon the whole crowd is singing “I love Jesus, I love Jesus,” along with Minchin, in a video that has been viewed half a million times on YouTube. 
Then Minchin changes the lyrics: “I love Jesus, I hate faggots,” he sings. “I love Jesus, I hate faggots.” The crowd stops singing along. Minchin looks up from his guitar, pretending not to understand what the problem could be. 
“What happened? I just lost you there,” Minchin says. He makes a halfhearted attempt to get the singalong going again before giving up. “Ah, well,” he shrugs. “Maybe these are ideas best shared in churches.” 
Those ideas — loving Jesus means hating gay people — are proclaimed in Christian churches and on Christian television and radio broadcasts. The combined efforts of the Family Research Council, the National Organization for Marriage, “The 700 Club,” the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Westboro Baptist Church, and countless conservative Christian activists, preachers and politicians have succeeded in making antigay bigotry seem synonymous with Christianity. 
This can cause a lot of heartache — with sometimes devastating consequences — for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender children born into fundamentalist or evangelical Christian families. Such was the case for Jeff Chu, the author of “Does Jesus Really Love Me? A Gay Christian’s Pilgrimage in Search of God in America.” Chu is an accomplished journalist who recently married his male partner. But Chu’s mother, a devout Baptist, didn’t attend her son’s wedding. She still cries herself to sleep every night, Chu writes, tormented by the certainty that her gay son is “lost.” 
As a child, Chu adored the song “Jesus Loves Me.” But does Jesus love him now that he’s an openly gay adult? Chu has his doubts: “There are still moments when I wonder whether my homosexuality is my ticket to hell.”
Does Jesus still love Chu? Absolutely.  Does God hate those who refuse to repent of their abomination?  We have a strong Biblical basis for asserting that, given how many times we are told He hates the wicked.  It isn't Chu's homosexuality that is his ticket to Hell, it is his refusal to repent of his sin and his refusal to permit Jesus Christ to stand in his stead in the time of judgment.

We are all sinners. The very last thing I want is to have to stand behind my personal permanent record and be judged by it.  I want my official record, as far as God's judgment is concerned, to be that of history's only sinless man.  The proper question with which one should be concerned isn't whether Jesus loves one or not, but whether God does.

This piece is as trivial as it is slanderous.  It is not "antigay bigotry" to claim that unrepentant sinners who not only glory in their sin, but define themselves by it, are headed straight for the eternal incinerator, especially if Hell does not exist.  If I were to say that homosexuals are all destined to be raped by unicorns and leprechauns, no one would consider it bigotry.  This is mere rhetoric, intended to modify Christian behavior to the liking of those who hate Christianity by a transparent attempt at emotional manipulation.

Either unrepentant homosexuals are Hell-bound or they are not.  No amount of touchy-feely Churchian welcomism will change that either way.  And to the extent that the wicked are welcomed into the Church without being warned of the need to repent, the Church is failing in its Christian duty.  Homosexuality, like almost every other sin, can be forgiven. But before forgiveness can be granted, there must be repentance.

Liberals always love to cite the example of the adulterous woman spared stoning by Jesus asking who will cast the first stone.  And they always leave off the vital conclusion, where Jesus tells the woman to "go and sin no more".

The wickedness of the homosexual community can be seen in its corrosive effect on others.  Consider this passage in light of the requirement Jesus laid upon his followers:

After Benjamin Sullivan-Knoff came out to his parents in his sophomore year of high school, his mother begged her son not to do so publicly. She was working as an associate pastor at a conservative church — an Evangelical Covenant Church — and she feared she would be fired if her son came out. A few months later she reversed herself, asked for her son’s forgiveness and gave him her blessing to come out. “I love this denomination,” Eva Sullivan-Knoff tells Chu, “but I love my son more.”

She loves her son more than her denomination, which is fine. But she has revealed that she is no Christian disciple, she cannot be, as per the words of Jesus Christ himself.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
- Luke 14:26

Christianity is not the easy way.  It is the hard way. We forget that at our peril. And to those Churchians and non-Christians who would attempt to argue with the points presented here, I have a single question: precisely what sins beside homosexual fornication did Jesus Christ declare a man did not need to repent in order to be saved?

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347 Comments:

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Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:05 PM  

Amen. A freaking men.


Peach.

Anonymous CunningDove April 17, 2013 1:07 PM  

If doing what is right was easy, everyone would do it.

Anonymous 11B April 17, 2013 1:08 PM  

The author who wrote this piece in the Times is Dan Savage. According to the Times: Dan Savage writes the syndicated advice column “Savage Love,” and with his husband founded the “It Gets Better” project. His new book, “American Savage,” will be published in May.

Take his opinion on this subject with a large grain of salt.

Anonymous Bitter Clingy Christian April 17, 2013 1:09 PM  

Me want HATE! MOAR HATE!

Anonymous Darth Toolpodicus April 17, 2013 1:11 PM  

Funny how comments appear to be disabled on the NYT article...

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:11 PM  

Checklist for the gay kid and his mother:
Hyphenated last name
Female pastor
No mention of the father

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:12 PM  

Ain't savage the santorum guy?

Anonymous Stickwick April 17, 2013 1:16 PM  

Dan Savage is a particularly nasty piece of work.

Blogger RobertT April 17, 2013 1:16 PM  

Well said. These people may see a public relations victory as the ultimate reward, words spoken, a crowd gathered around you cheering, but alas and alack, it's not.

Anonymous JohnR April 17, 2013 1:16 PM  

Josh: It says to his parents...

You are right about the rest though.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 1:18 PM  

But Jesus said we were supposed to be nice to each other!!!

Anonymous Steven April 17, 2013 1:18 PM  

What does it mean to repent?

Anonymous Other Josh April 17, 2013 1:20 PM  

If you, or anyone else, thinks they will be standing before God the Father on judgment day, think again:

John 5:22, 23 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.



Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:20 PM  

Me want HATE! MOAR HATE!

I think you'll find that the most common emotion Christians have towards gays is pity.

Blogger jamsco April 17, 2013 1:21 PM  

There is good Gospel in this post, Vox. I'm glad to see it.

Pear.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:22 PM  

Josh: It says to his parents...You are right about the rest though.

My mistake. I wonder what the father thinks or says about the matter. I wonder if his opinion even matters in his family or church.

Anonymous ZhukovG April 17, 2013 1:23 PM  

It is hateful rather, to fail to warn the sinner of their peril.

Anonymous Soga April 17, 2013 1:27 PM  

Steven wrote:
"What does it mean to repent?"

To repent is to turn away from something. In the Christian sense, it means to turn from sin and indeed, to turn toward God and obey His commands and ways.

To repent from homosexuality would be to recognize that it is immoral, that it does nothing to please God (and indeed, only angers Him), that it is ultimately self-destructive (never mind the physical self-destructiveness of it, of course). It is to turn to God as the ultimate authority in your life, because His ways are good and just, and because God, as our Maker, knows the key to a human life lived optimally.

Homosexuality is not only not Biblical; it is ANTI-biblical. To teach even a neutral attitude toward homosexuality, as so many Churchians are so wont to do nowadays, is to commit heresy.

Anonymous Move Zig April 17, 2013 1:27 PM  

Very good sermon Pastor Day.

Blogger Heuristics April 17, 2013 1:27 PM  

To underline the point I will retell part of a sermon that I witnessed in this church about 8 months ago: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allhelgonakyrkan,_Lund

It was the time of year when the topic was about the apostles. The priestess first explained that we should not think that the apostles gave up their lives to follow Jesus, it was in fact not hard at all to do since they likely knew Jesus from before and there was nothing much to Jesus asking them to follow him. After this she explained that this is in fact nothing to find odd for if Jesus came to her and asked her to give up her life and follow him she would not do this for she had among other things her car to think about. The main point of her sermon came at this point, she said that she also did not think that anyone in the congregation (a massive 10 people or so) would follow him either if he personally came and asked them to do so...
Interestingly this was her last day at the church, after the mass she was thanked for the work she had done and was given a small gift, apparently she had moved to another city and started working there instead.

So, some of these people actually openly come right out and say that they are not interested in following Jesus.

Blogger Dan Hewitt April 17, 2013 1:28 PM  

The author of the quoted article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ao0k9qDsOvs

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:28 PM  

Repent, from strongs:

μετανοέω to change one's mind

μετανοέω to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)

Anonymous Boetain April 17, 2013 1:29 PM  

It doesn't say what happened to the "female pastor" after her son came out of the closet. Depending on how "forward thinking" and "progressive" her church is, she might have gotten a promotion.

Anonymous Mudz April 17, 2013 1:30 PM  

Those ideas — loving Jesus means hating gay people — are proclaimed in Christian churches and on Christian television and radio broadcasts. The combined efforts of the Family Research Council, the National Organization for Marriage, “The 700 Club,” the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Westboro Baptist Church, and countless conservative Christian activists, preachers and politicians have succeeded in making antigay bigotry seem synonymous with Christianity.

And if people didn't see it this way before, this article is here to educate them. How subtle.

"For whoever becomes ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of man will be ashamed of this one when he arrives in his glory and of the holy angels." - Luke 9:26

Blogger Res Ipsa April 17, 2013 1:33 PM  

Vox,

This is one of your better done religious posts. Congrats.

Anonymous mjb April 17, 2013 1:34 PM  

The world calls love hate and hate love. The world does not want to see that what they are doing as contrary to a God who does exist, and who does have a coming judgement. No, it would be uncomfortable to think that there are serious repercussions to the choices we make on this side of eternity.

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 1:35 PM  

Very good sermon Pastor Day.

Don't. Not even as a joke. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the matter and claim no authority.

John 5:22, 23 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

I'm not sure this contradicts the notion of Judgment Day the way you imply it does. Note the present tense. But let's not debate this here, as it is a worthy subject of a dedicated post.

Anonymous Bitter Clingy Christian April 17, 2013 1:35 PM  

Me wish Tim Minchin was gay so me can HATE him! Me love to HATE! MOAR HATE!!

Anonymous Other Josh April 17, 2013 1:36 PM  

The greek word for "repent" in the New Testament is "metanoia". It literally means "change your mind."

The unsaved are instructed to repent, or "change their mind." Change their mind about what? In short, anything that is keeping them from believing on Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Do you think you don't need a savior? Think you're good enough for God to accept you on your own merits? Repent! Change your mind and trust in the Lord Jesus, cause you ain't gonna make it on your own!

Don't want Jesus to be the Lord of your life?

Don't believe in heaven or hell?

Don't believe Jesus is the Savior?

etc. etc.

In each case... repent! Change your mind and trust in Jesus.


Blogger tz April 17, 2013 1:38 PM  

It is absolutely bigotry. Why do you hate unicorns and leprechauns?

There is a tendency to sin - even the Catechism says there is no sin in having same-sex-attraction. Acting on it is entirely different. Except for the new social pressures to consider it normal, it would be a blessing to have such an obvious temptation. People cheat, steal, defraud, lie, detract, calumnate, gossip, injure, and even laud torture and murder.

Abortion blows away everything else. We are arguing bullets and arrows while nuclear bombs are going off.

Is a parade with the first torturers and women and children killer's battalion any less worse than a gay pride parade?

Jesus said they would know his followers because they loved one another, not that they would be nice to one another. Love can require sacrifice in both directions - to lose your life for your friend, or lose the friend in an attempt to save his soul.

Savage may be a piece of work, but where does his evil come from? Is he a bully because he was bullied? Is his vitriol met with worse vitriol? Hate with more hate? Has any Christian "loved" this enemy? What would a conversation between him and Mother Theresa be like?

Anonymous Cabaret April 17, 2013 1:38 PM  

Dear christian: Who will you believe? Some hateful bigot on the Internet or a certified minister in your church?

http://www.christianpost.com/news/rob-bell-on-gay-marriage-support-god-pulling-us-ahead-to-affirm-gay-brothers-sisters-92395/

"I believe God [is] pulling us ahead into greater and greater affirmation and acceptance of our gay brothers and sisters and pastors and friends and neighbors and coworkers," former megachurch pastor and best-selling author Rob Bell explained just days after surprising the evangelical Christian community with his expressed support for same-sex marriage.

The former Mars Hill Bible Church founder and controversial Love Wins author told Odyssey Networks in an interview published Wednesday that many people are "realizing that God makes some of us one way and some of us another, and it can be a beautiful thing."

Anonymous Krul April 17, 2013 1:38 PM  

Meanwhile, muslims and jews remain above criticism in this regard. They, unlike Christians, have the right to define their own identity, set their own standards of entry, and have their sacred beliefs respected by others. Probably because Christians are the only ones whose beliefs are actually sacred.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 1:44 PM  

Its ok for Muslims to actually kill homosexuals for their homosexuality. It is however THE END OF THE WORLD if Christians say something mean about them.

Anonymous Cabaret April 17, 2013 1:44 PM  

"Homosexuality is not only not Biblical; it is ANTI-biblical"

Having unconscious homosexual attraction/thoughts/temptations? Or having homosexual sex? What if the sex is under a same-sex marriage, certified by the government (Romans 13:1)?

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:45 PM  

I've thought a lot recently about the best way that we as a church can more effectively minister to and evangelize to gays.

Obviously what we're doing as a whole isn't working. And, as a whole, we don't have the compassion or mercy towards gays that Jesus would have.

Perhaps a good approach would be to recognize that gays are incredibly wounded and live a life full of tremendous pain. And the only way that pain can be healed is through Jesus.

The father did not demand that the prodigal clean himself before embracing him. In fact, the prodigal is utterly incapable of cleaning himself.

Obviously this is not to condone the unrepentant homosexual continuing to be a part of a church body. It's more of my own thought process about reaching out to gays with the message of the gospel.

Anonymous beerme April 17, 2013 1:45 PM  

Krul, Judaism and Islam aren't the backbone of the society that they (insert whichever group you find appropriate) wish to deconstruct.

My opinion is that the homosexuals do outlandish things such as these because the Christians do not hate them enough. Better to be hated than pitied for their moral failings.

Anonymous Cabaret April 17, 2013 1:46 PM  

"even the Catechism says there is no sin in having same-sex-attraction"

matthew 5:28

oops, your own holy book disagrees!

Anonymous Anonagain April 17, 2013 1:47 PM  

realizing that God makes some of us one way and some of us another, and it can be a beautiful thing."

Pedophiles are made by God, too. It's truly beautiful to realize this. Same with murderers, rapists, cannibals, Nazis, KKK - all made by God! Hallelujah!!

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:47 PM  

Savage may be a piece of work, but where does his evil come from? Is he a bully because he was bullied? Is his vitriol met with worse vitriol? Hate with more hate? Has any Christian "loved" this enemy? What would a conversation between him and Mother Theresa be like?

Those are very good questions, tz.

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 1:48 PM  

Having unconscious homosexual attraction/thoughts/temptations? Or having homosexual sex? What if the sex is under a same-sex marriage, certified by the government (Romans 13:1)?

Giving into homosexual attractions, thoughts, and temptations. The government certification doesn't matter; if it were, then one could justify killing homosexuals just by passing a law to that effect. Evil is evil, government does not determine that.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:48 PM  

"I believe God [is] pulling us ahead into greater and greater affirmation and acceptance of our gay brothers and sisters and pastors and friends and neighbors and coworkers," former megachurch pastor and best-selling author Rob Bell explained just days after surprising the evangelical Christian community with his expressed support for same-sex marriage.

Sad, but not surprising, to see Bell continue down this road.

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 1:49 PM  

"This piece is as trivial as it is slanderous. It is not "antigay bigotry" to claim that unrepentant sinners who not only glory in their sin, but define themselves by it, are headed straight for the eternal incinerator, especially if Hell does not exist."

Of course it's anti-gay bigotry....But dressed up in and standing cowardly standing behind religion. There's no way around this. Quote scripture till you are blue in the face. It's a fact.

Add to this the countless examples of self proclaimed Christian on this blog and all across America who make it a habit of not merely quoting scripture where homosexuality is concerned, but actively baiting, demeaning, sluring and holding homosexuals up as the nastiest people and you get a really good sense of what kind of people Christianity has a tendency to breed.

Blogger IM2L844 April 17, 2013 1:52 PM  

They will never repent because any truly loving and caring God surely MUST recognize their personal RIGHT to achieve orgasm any way they want. It's the most important thing ever.

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 1:52 PM  

Of course it's anti-gay bigotry....But dressed up in and standing cowardly standing behind religion. There's no way around this. Quote scripture till you are blue in the face. It's a fact.

It is no more "anti-gay bigotry" than telling someone that if he drives his car forward 100 more feet, he will plunge off a cliff. You can whine and cry that Christians are mean all you like. Unrepentant homosexuals are still going to burn in the fires of Hell.

And it is insane that you think it is terrible to warn them of this in case they wish to avoid such a fate. If anyone hates gays, it is you. Why do you want them to burn in Hell, A. Man?

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 1:52 PM  

"Either unrepentant homosexuals are Hell-bound or they are not. No amount of touchy-feely Churchian welcomism will change that either way."

They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:53 PM  

http://m.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/being-gay-at-jerry-falwells-university/274578/

What do y'all think of the way the faculty at liberty responded?

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 1:53 PM  

"You can whine and cry that Christians are mean all you like. Unrepentant homosexuals are still going to burn in the fires of Hell."

It's not all christians. It's just he ignorant and dumb ones.

Anonymous PJ April 17, 2013 1:55 PM  

"I've always said, you know, that I don't respect people who do not proselytize. I don't respect that at all. If you believe that there's a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think that, uh, well, it's not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think that people shouldn't proselytize, [saying] "Just leave me alone and keep your religion to yourself"—uh, how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize them? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them that? I mean, if I believed beyond the shadow of a doubt that a truck was coming to hit you, and you didn't believe it, and that truck was bearing down on you, there's a certain point where I tackle you. And this is more important than that."

- Penn Jillette, atheist

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 1:56 PM  

I think a chief failing of Christians has been to treat gays as a special type of unrepentant sinner. Christian families will still invite the unrepentant atheist relative and her live-in boyfriend to Christmas dinner, but wouldn't do the same to a homosexual relative and their partner. Not ostracizing them from the family != marching in a gay pride parade with them.

You make your position clear and after that they have to make their own choices. You still love them, pray for them, and treat them politely so long as they are polite.

Anonymous Krul April 17, 2013 1:57 PM  

A. Man - Of course it's anti-gay bigotry

*Sigh* Why does it always turn to semantics? Who cares if it's technically "bigotry"? Why don't Christians have the right to exclude those people who have no intention of trying to live in accordance with Christian beliefs?

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 1:58 PM  

They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

So you say. Then why do you object to them being told something that you believe is never going to happen? Would you care as much if they were told they would be raped by leprechauns and unicorns?

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 1:58 PM  

If Jesus was in the same room as Dan Savage today, how would Savage respond to Jesus? How would Jesus respond to Savage?

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 1:58 PM  

Shutup, A. Man

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:00 PM  

A. Man, are you gay?

Do you hate Christians?

Anonymous Loki of Asgard April 17, 2013 2:00 PM  

Of course it's anti-gay bigotry...

And why, pray, in the great wide world, does it matter?

Anonymous Mudz April 17, 2013 2:00 PM  

@ A.Man

Add to this the countless examples of self proclaimed Christian on this blog and all across America who make it a habit of not merely quoting scripture where homosexuality is concerned, but actively baiting, demeaning, sluring and holding homosexuals up as the nastiest people and you get a really good sense of what kind of people Christianity has a tendency to breed.

A large portion of the American population?

Oh dear. Christians who quote scripture to support their scripturally-based position against homosexuality. How unexpected.

They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

The one doesn't follow from the other.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:01 PM  

"even the Catechism says there is no sin in having same-sex-attraction"

matthew 5:28

oops, your own holy book disagrees!


Clearly Cabaret does not understand the difference between temptation, and acting upon the temptation.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:02 PM  

"If Jesus was in the same room as Dan Savage today, how would Savage respond to Jesus? How would Jesus respond to Savage?"

In the parable of the prodigal son... did the father chase the son?

What efforts did the father take to reach the son while he was embracing sin?

Anonymous Obvious April 17, 2013 2:04 PM  

I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus.

Anonymous Sigyn April 17, 2013 2:05 PM  

If Jesus was in the same room as Dan Savage today, how would Savage respond to Jesus?

Screaming in terror? Cowering? Trying to find a mountain to pull over him and hide him?

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:05 PM  

In the parable of the prodigal son... did the father chase the son?
What efforts did the father take to reach the son while he was embracing sin?


I think that savage would fall at the feet of Jesus weeping and repenting.

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus.

1. What is the meaning of your scare quotes?

2. What other sins in Leviticus? You do understand that Christians are not Jews, do you not? The Christian case against homosexuality is not based on the Old Testament.

Anonymous mjb April 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

Josh, I think we are called to invite others to come and meet God, but the church has taken it two ways, I think:

1. Come as you are, stay as you are, no need to repent, or if you do repent, don't worry, carry on.

Or:

2. Don't you dare come in here like that, you filthy pagan, not until you clean yourself up. Here, here's a suit and tie, and make sure you dump all of your alcohol down the drain before you accept Jesus as your personal savior.

When indeed, it should be:

You're a mess, we're a mess, repent (true repentance means turning away), and follow Jesus.

Blogger Bogey April 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

Christianity is not the easy way.
So easy to be lead astray by the world.

John 5:22, 23 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

I'm not sure this contradicts the notion of Judgment Day the way you imply it does. Note the present tense. But let's not debate this here, as it is a worthy subject of a dedicated post.


Because the father and the son are one in the same. It's really not that hard. To your children you are a father, to your wife you are a husband and to your readers you are a Blogger/Fantasy writer.

Anonymous Soga April 17, 2013 2:06 PM  

Obvious wrote:
"I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus."

Name them.

Homosexuality gets press because it's in the press. Bestiality? Nobody's talking about that because nobody's trying to push for the normalization of bestiality... yet.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:07 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger IM2L844 April 17, 2013 2:07 PM  

They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

You can hope that, but you can't know it.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:07 PM  

I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus.

Congratulations, you don't know anything about the Bible. Hint: it's not leviticus.

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 2:08 PM  

"*Sigh* Why does it always turn to semantics? Who cares if it's technically "bigotry"? Why don't Christians have the right to exclude those people who have no intention of trying to live in accordance with Christian beliefs?"

Christians have every right to be A**holes.

Blogger The Deuce April 17, 2013 2:09 PM  

VD:

And to those Churchians and non-Christians who would attempt to argue with the points presented here, I have a single question: precisely what sins beside homosexual fornication did Jesus Christ declare a man did not need to repent in order to be saved?

If it's Dan Savage we're talking about, the answer is apparently infidelity in general: http://www.examiner.com/article/dan-savage-on-monogamy-and-marriage-it-doesn-t-get-better-says-sex-columnist

Anonymous Sigyn April 17, 2013 2:10 PM  

I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus.

You mean like eating cheeseburgers? I think it was specified that's okay. On the other hand...these guys are specifically not okay.

But I know, actually having it written out for you is a bit too...

*puts on a pair of sunglasses* OBVIOUS.

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 2:10 PM  

"So you say. Then why do you object to them being told something that you believe is never going to happen?"

If all they were being told was they won't go to heaven that would be one thing. But I think you and I both know that isn't only what they are being told. They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay. They are slurred regularly. And they are called names for sport. All you have to see this is look at the comments on this blog.

Blogger The Deuce April 17, 2013 2:12 PM  

They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

Just keep telling yourself that. After all, the devil loves company.

Anonymous Krul April 17, 2013 2:13 PM  

Pieces like this always assume the nonexistence of God at the outset, then proceed to demand that Christians alter their beliefs and practices to accommodate whatever modern sensibilities are in vogue this week.

What is preventing gay people from repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? NOTHING. That's not what they want. They want Christian men and women to accept them. More accurately, they want Christians to accept their homosexuality, to implicitly accept the false proposition that homosexuality is the same as heterosexuality.

The only reason I hesitate from calling this an attack on Christianity is that I suspect that would be giving these pitiable fools too much credit.

Anonymous mjb April 17, 2013 2:14 PM  

A. Man, what you say is true, but not to the extent you seem to imply. Gangs of old blue haired conservative Baptist ladies are not roving about beating gay dudes, the slurring is likely not as common as those taking the Lord's name in vain, and to single out a blog that practices free speech, is probably not the best way to represent an entire group of people

Anonymous Mudz April 17, 2013 2:15 PM  

If all they were being told was they won't go to heaven that would be one thing. But I think you and I both know that isn't only what they are being told. They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay. They are slurred regularly. And they are called names for sport. All you have to see this is look at the comments on this blog.

They're probably qualified to go into comedy then. Haven't seen much from Eddie Murphy lately.

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 17, 2013 2:15 PM  

I'm a fan on how "Christians" continue to beat the drum on homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring the other sins also mentioned in Leviticus.

You should look into the Noahide Laws and understand what was expected of members of the barbarian grape vine that is grafted into Abraham's family, even before the completion of the promised coming of the son of the woman that would smash the serpent's head.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:16 PM  

"*puts on a pair of sunglasses* OBVIOUS."


I chuckled. I confess.

Anonymous the bandit April 17, 2013 2:16 PM  

nobody's trying to push for the normalization of bestiality... yet.

How I wish that were true. You must have missed the story about Yale University hosting that sex weekend workshop a little over a month ago.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:16 PM  

A. Man, answer my questions please.

Blogger IM2L844 April 17, 2013 2:17 PM  

They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay.

Not by Christians.

Blogger Crude April 17, 2013 2:17 PM  

The gay topic is loaded with problems. I'm sure there's some amount of anti-gay bigotry, insofar as that cashes out to people treating people who are gay rotten simply because they're gay - regardless of their actions. A good portion of that stems from people thinking that 'gays' are a monolithic group that's basically 1:1 identical with 'LGBT activists'. Something LGBT groups and liberals generally try to actively promote.

But then you have people who define 'anti-gay bigotry' as broadly as 'failing to support gay marriage, or failing to believe that sodomy is moral, normal and great'. You can think people with same-sex attraction are just like anyone else morally - people who happen to be afflicted by a particularly immoral desire - but nope, you're still a hateful bigot if you don't stop just short of making the sign of the cross in blessing as the cock slides into the ass.

Blogger Bogey April 17, 2013 2:18 PM  

Homosexuality gets press because it's in the press. Bestiality? Nobody's talking about that because nobody's trying to push for the normalization of bestiality... yet.

I like the "... Yet". That pretty much sums it up, we've normalized sin so much that it's pretty much open season. Proving once again that the only non-fallacy fallacy is the Slippery Slope.

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 2:19 PM  

"They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

You can hope that, but you can't know it."

That's right. I can't know for sure. It's equally true that I can't know for sure that upon death we all enter a place where Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly F*cking a goat and reciting the lyrics to "Es zittern die morschen Knochen".

Anything is possible.

Anonymous Anonymous April 17, 2013 2:20 PM  

OT ... Arrest made in Boston bombing.

A. Man is praying to nobody the bomber has lighter skin pigmentation than Michael Jackson.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:21 PM  

A. Man is praying to nobody the bomber has lighter skin pigmentation than Michael Jackson.

A. Man is David Sirota?

Anonymous A. Man April 17, 2013 2:21 PM  

"They are not. For the simple reason that there is no hell and there is no reason to repent.

Just keep telling yourself that. After all, the devil loves company."

Well, let's be honest. If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple as to condemn homosexuality, then it's pretty clear there is no distinguishing between this god and the devil.

Anonymous NA April 17, 2013 2:22 PM  

"They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay."

PROOF???

Anonymous Papapete April 17, 2013 2:22 PM  

As a Christian I have a difficult time with those Christians who hold up homosexuality as a special category of sin,far worse than any other. A pastor of my acquaintance Accepted an adulterer who remarried and his new wife back into his church (in direct defiance of Scripture), while ignoring his pastoral duties to a family of a teenage boy who is struggling with homosexual desires. He pushed them away and made them feel so unwelcome that they left. No wise counsel, no prayer support, no emotional support. It was as if the young man's desires had contaminated the whole family and rendered them unworthy of Christian brotherhood.

Anonymous the bandit April 17, 2013 2:23 PM  

They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay.

You're insane. You lump these in with slurs and names because you can prove the slurs and names -- of course, because everybody has slurs and names for people of every sort -- and you think this affirms your assumptions of acted-on hate that does not exist.

The only way you could possibly make the case for the above claims would be intolerant bigotry of your own (i.e., trying to argue that the Westboro kooks or some violent homophobe is representative of a religion that condemns them [the kooks and violent homophobe]!). Ridiculous.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

Brave Sir Cabaret ran away! Ran away!

Anonymous 11B April 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

If all they were being told was they won't go to heaven that would be one thing. But I think you and I both know that isn't only what they are being told. They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay. They are slurred regularly. And they are called names for sport. All you have to see this is look at the comments on this blog.

I think you are describing what happens to gays in the black community.

Anonymous Anonymous April 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

"Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly F*cking a goat and reciting the lyrics to "Es zittern die morschen Knochen"."

Name calling and slurring is bad. Unless it's against our Lord.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:24 PM  

So who says he'll forgive you
And says that he'll miss you
And dream of your sweet memory

God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't

And that's the difference
Between God and me

Anonymous MrGreenMan April 17, 2013 2:25 PM  

That's right. I can't know for sure. It's equally true that I can't know for sure that upon death we all enter a place where Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly F*cking a goat and reciting the lyrics to "Es zittern die morschen Knochen".

Anything is possible.


But, A. Man, you must start with one of two premises:

1) You have an original thought or outlook that has somehow escaped the thinking of previous people who were similarly skeptical.

2) There are other people who have thought more than you on this.

If you tend to believe the first, then the world will eventually teach you better. I remember a particularly humbling experience when the wizard himself John Conway explained to me how my research was pedantic, petty, ho-hum, and simply warmed-over pap. He then proceeded to explain how most of his was, too.

Assuming life's humility leads you two #2, look around at what people have believed. Nobody has maintained the belief in a 24 hour orgy. Some beliefs have come and gone. There are always fundamentalist movements because, the simple thing is - people want to know what a more introspective, earlier generation believed and accepted.

Now, if you continue this direction, you must eventually put aside your pride and say - somebody probably has this right, and you must look at faiths that have endured. As you survey these things, you will see there are some, but not nearly as many that have strut upon the stage and left.

If you get this far, you will at least be an open minded agnostic, of which there are several who frequent here, and you may eventually become a Christian or something else, but you at least you won't be another run-of-the-mill asshole atheist who says there is no God because you're so sure of the uniqueness of your regurgitated thoughts.

There is nothing new under the sun, even in the arguments of atheists. The Greeks did better.

Anonymous Mudz April 17, 2013 2:25 PM  

A.Man


Well, let's be honest. If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple as to condemn homosexuality, then it's pretty clear there is no distinguishing between this god and the devil.


Apart from the fact that they are the most clearly disparate personalities in existence, as well as distinct different qualities of power, agenda, and possibly physical/spiritual constitution. Possibly why they had a bit of a disagreement a while back. Authority and all that.

Not that you seem to intend to have a constructive dialogue, but it's worth making that minor note.

Anonymous NA April 17, 2013 2:28 PM  

"If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple"

Petty and simple compared to whom? You?

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 2:28 PM  

If all they were being told was they won't go to heaven that would be one thing. But I think you and I both know that isn't only what they are being told. They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay. They are slurred regularly. And they are called names for sport. All you have to see this is look at the comments on this blog.

So you have no problem with unrepentant homosexuals being told that they'll go to Hell?

As for the rest, you have your causation reversed. The offense and the nastiness is in what they are. Consider that "gay" became a slur AFTER the homosexual community adopted it as a title. "Fag" is not a slur in the UK because it refers to a cigarette. Like "faggot", it is only a slur where it refers to a homosexual.

If we agreed upon a new and inoffensive word tomorrow to describe homosexuals, it would become an offensive term almost instantly. Because the offense is in the essence, not the label. You are confusing the map with the territory.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:28 PM  

Well, let's be honest. If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple as to condemn homosexuality, then it's pretty clear there is no distinguishing between this god and the devil.

I do feel sorry for you, A. Man. You truly are lost.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:29 PM  

"Well, let's be honest. If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple as to condemn homosexuality, then it's pretty clear there is no distinguishing between this god and the devil."

Please go to a mosque and say this.

Please.

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 2:30 PM  

The only question is do Christians need to tolerate those who are, in their view, unrepentant sinners?

Hate doesn't have to enter into it.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:33 PM  

where Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly...

After being proven by documented facts to be demonstrably wrong about McVeigh's beliefs here's A. Man in all of his glory throwing his poop while screaming "You are bad, you are bad!".

It's amusing to see that no matter how many times he's proven wrong, no matter how many arguments he doesn't understand or loses, he still digs in his diaper for more poop to fling while thinking he's convincing people, or at the very least they are all crazy wrong and he's right about most everything.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:33 PM  

Hate doesn't have to enter into it.

Apparently now intolerance is hate. Even though indifference would be a better term. And indifference isn't hate.

Wait, why the hell are you a leftist again?

Blogger The Deuce April 17, 2013 2:33 PM  

Well, let's be honest. If in fact your God did exist and if in fact he was so petty and simple as to condemn homosexuality, then it's pretty clear there is no distinguishing between this god and the devil.

LOL, it's very telling when an atheist purports to inform everyone what God, if He existed, would or wouldn't be permitted to care about. Very telling about what motivates that atheist's atheism, I mean.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard April 17, 2013 2:33 PM  

If all they were being told was they won't go to heaven that would be one thing. But I think you and I both know that isn't only what they are being told. They are demeaned in the nastiest ways. They are often taken out and beaten merely because they are gay. They are slurred regularly. And they are called names for sport. All you have to see this is look at the comments on this blog.

Do tell, how is your plight any worse than mine? You at least are judged by your own acts. I, on the other hand, must forever endure baiting and mockery for something I did not even do! The business with Svadilfari was a complete invention, I tell you, and yet every time I turn up in these threads, these people start whinnying at me!

And let us not even speak of their attempts to summon Thor...or threatening to "smash puny god"...or mocking my clothing...I am only here to do the conquering Americans won't do, and this is what I must endure!

Cry me a river about your First Realm Problems. At least you are only mocked for things you actually did.

Anonymous the bandit April 17, 2013 2:34 PM  

As a Christian I have a difficult time with those Christians who hold up homosexuality as a special category of sin,far worse than any other.

THAT is a reasonable (and accurate) example of Christian anti-gay bigotry. I have nailed my brothers and sisters to the wall for making statements that reveal that type of thinking. The world has the right to criticize Christians for having failed in this manner and specifically targeting homosexuals as some sort of untouchable, while allowing adulterers and fornicators to carry on in their midst.

This is also why I don't get all activist about the gay marriage issue, because what's really destroying civilization is sex outside of marriage and no-fault divorce. I would be perfectly fine with a DOMA that allowed for same-sex marriages but chucked no-fault divorce.

Anonymous Krul April 17, 2013 2:36 PM  

Remember Vox's post on the self-admitted inferior a while back? In short, one who holds others to a standard which he doesn't apply to himself thereby admits his own inferiority.

A. Man, who condemns Christians, calling them "nasty" for demeaning/excluding gays and using "slurs", is guilty of those very offenses against Christians, calling the "A**holes" and so forth. He holds Christians to a standard of behavior that he does not apply to himself. He is inferior, indeed. Either that or he does not believe that non-Christians like himself have a responsibility to be nice to others.

Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 2:37 PM  

Excellent post. You hit upon a well used thought process that people often use to justify homosexuality. Although they may believe homosexuality is a sin...the hamster wheel starts spinning, and they reply, "but my son, nephew, niece, sister... is gay, therefore I cannot bring myself to say that it is a sin."

This is clearly placing one's family before God's and his Word. I have had this situation come up a number of times.

"My daughter is having a same-sex blessing at her home, and has asked me to attend. As a Christian I am torn - do I go and support her (indirectly supporting her decision) or do I skip it, risking damaging my relationship in the future."




Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:38 PM  

Loki.

FTW.

Anonymous George of the Hole April 17, 2013 2:38 PM  

A. Man is not very bright. He inserts his protuberance into people's pungent poop-valves.

Anonymous Trayvon's Hoodie April 17, 2013 2:39 PM  

"he still digs in his diaper for more poop to fling "

Gay guys are into poop. Doncha know? It what they are into -- literally.

Anonymous Dan in Tx April 17, 2013 2:40 PM  

Here's the evil that stands out to me: those who are not satisfied with refusing to accept salvation themselves who actively work to block others from the opportunity to attain it. Just notice how quickly they become hostile at the very thought that a believer might share their faith and attempt to lead a sinner to salvation. It's never enough for them to simply shrug and say, "I don't believe in any of that stuff." No, they always actively work against it, going to great lengths to stop it at all costs. The irony of course being that they do not recognize that they are by default working on behalf of the devil. Non believers want to believe they are holding some sort of neutral position but the truth of Jesus' words are shown time and time again, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

Anonymous David April 17, 2013 2:41 PM  

Actually A. Man we do know that the afterlife is not your bestiality fantasy. So you can cross that off your list of possibilities.

Anonymous Clay April 17, 2013 2:41 PM  

Good grief, Loki. Dont get your gilded panties in a bunch.

Anonymous RINO April 17, 2013 2:42 PM  

I think sticking his reproductive organs into the rectal areas of men is the least of A.Man's problems as he has openly advocated murdering humans for convenience so long as society deems them non-persons. I doubt he would be saved from hell even if he did repent on this topic.

Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 2:43 PM  

A pastor of my acquaintance Accepted an adulterer who remarried and his new wife back into his church (in direct defiance of Scripture), while ignoring his pastoral duties to a family of a teenage boy who is struggling with homosexual desires

Without knowing all the details, I wonder if the man repented of his previous sins. Divorce, IMO, in and of itself doesn't bar someone from the body of Christ. It is a broken reality of this world.

The difference, as I have seen it, between the divorced and the homosexual is that divorced people who seek membership in churches usually don't defend their actions by stating they were without sin - and that divorce is good. If a divorced person openly confessed in church, in public, that divorce is not only sinnless - but actually blessed by God - then i would have a problem. The homosexual often does this - even stating that their homosexuality is something God blesses and people should celebrate.

Anonymous Daniel April 17, 2013 2:43 PM  

Peach. Pear. Be fruitful and multiply!

The atheist joke isn't very funny, primarily because church isn't a place to go sing "I love Jesus" anyhow. It is a rather classic failure in stand-up: it broke the "true first/funny second" rule. Most lame comics are so because they are running with retread jokes that have been stripped of their original meaning or truth. Seriously: after the uncomfortable pause, did anyone in the audience genuinely laugh? If so, they've been lobotomized.

Comics who "riff" on the ancient "the way white people can't talk jive" jokes (this is a subset of it: "isn't sitting in a pew [something else the comic likely only has third-hand experience in] uncomfortable?") from the 70s (Carlos Mencia - ejemplo numero uno) have completely divorced the content from the context: it just isn't funny. It's like they heard a Richard Pryor record when they were a kid, didn't get it the first time, and now have mangled it in an attempt to "keep it fresh."

OT semi-related request: A religion post regarding the nature of hell and/or "the second death." My guess is that I might have an intriguing - if daft - minority viewpoint.

Anonymous Loki of Asgard April 17, 2013 2:44 PM  

Loki.

FTW.


Is that the sound of kneeling?

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:45 PM  

"A pastor of my acquaintance Accepted an adulterer who remarried and his new wife back into his church (in direct defiance of Scripture),"

Re-marrying is not sin. Putting the first wife away is the sin. Nothing wrong with having 2 wives.

Anonymous woeriuwe April 17, 2013 2:46 PM  

It's really sodomy and other homosexual acts we're talking about. "Homosexuality" is one verbal step removed from that. "Gay marriage" is two steps removed. Do people really not understand why sodomy isn't equal to coitus and that it's a misuse of the human body? It isn't a left/right question, it's not political or even religious. It's about right and wrong. Exactly the same as with murder. Religious people and representatives weigh in on it because religion is concerned with right and wrong, but it transcends religion.

Anonymous the bandit April 17, 2013 2:46 PM  

JDC -- As I understood it, the problem is not the divorce as much as the remarriage which serves as a sign of unrepentance of the divorce.

Anonymous Porky April 17, 2013 2:46 PM  

dh: The only question is do Christians need to tolerate those who are, in their view, unrepentant sinners?

And by "tolerate" you mean "shut up about"? "Stop expressing opinions about"? "Saying hurtful stuff"?

Define, please.

Anonymous damntull April 17, 2013 2:46 PM  

Krul.
Right on!

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 2:47 PM  

So you have no problem with unrepentant homosexuals being told that they'll go to Hell?
I can only speak for me. I have no problem with it.

As for the rest, you have your causation reversed. The offense and the nastiness is in what they are. Consider that "gay" became a slur AFTER the homosexual community adopted it as a title. "Fag" is not a slur in the UK because it refers to a cigarette. Like "faggot", it is only a slur where it refers to a homosexual.
The slur isn't really relevant, it's the action that goes with it. Calling someone the name isn't the problem. Although a lot of the gays would like that to be the problem, there is always some other action that goes with it. Well, not always, but often.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:47 PM  

The difference, as I have seen it, between the divorced and the homosexual is that divorced people who seek membership in churches usually don't defend their actions by stating they were without sin - and that divorce is good. If a divorced person openly confessed in church, in public, that divorce is not only sinnless - but actually blessed by God - then i would have a problem.

Would that the divorced view the church the same way homosexuals do. It would mean the church is doing its job. The church is far, far too lenient on divorce.

And yes...people really are defending divorce and saying that God told them to get divorced. I would recommend dalrock's blog for some damning examples of this.

Anonymous Krul April 17, 2013 2:49 PM  

damntull - Krul.
Right on!


Thanks. In reference too...?

Anonymous Anonagain April 17, 2013 2:52 PM  

Faggots are a protected species in our enlightened culture. I'm concerned about those poor pedophiles who must continue to hide in the closet and are treated like criminals.

A solution just occurred to me, one that will make pedophilia acceptable and bring these poor victims of bigotry out into the open arms of society. Yes, I believe we are becoming sufficiently enlightened to implement my solution to this ghastly injustice.

The obvious solution is that abortionists should make every effort to keep the fetuses intact, then the pedophiles can have their way with the tiny corpses. Of course, they'd have to become necrophiles as well, but it's a compromise I'm sure they'd be willing to make. Even better - after the pedophiles have finished with the corpses, they could be sold to cannibals. We mustn't forget these other "differently made" creatures of God. As they say, waste not, want not. It's a win-win-win!

Who, but the most close-minded, hateful bigot could object to my proposal?

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 2:54 PM  

"Is that the sound of kneeling?"

No. Its the sound of amusement. The only time I kneel is when I need to whisper to my dying enemies.

Anonymous Freddy April 17, 2013 2:55 PM  

When Jesus tells some of his so called followers to "depart from me, I never knew you," we may conclude that this same group are the goats, the workers of iniquity...the same group that the Father hates. When Thomas sees the nail prints of the risen Christ he proclaims, "my Lord and my God!" Jesus never died for the goats, his atonement is particular, reserved for his people (Matt 1:21). Since the Father and the Son are one in purpose then Jesus indeed hates some with a perfect hatred.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:57 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger IM2L844 April 17, 2013 2:57 PM  

I can't know for sure. It's equally true that I can't know for sure that upon death we all enter a place where Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly F*cking a goat and reciting the lyrics to "Es zittern die morschen Knochen".

Just like every other progressive hypocrite, you have no problem slinging your own brand offensive rhetoric while excoriating others for less. Try to get a grip on reality. You came in here of your own accord.

For homo's to march in the streets and demand that I must demonstrate respect for the way they choose to get their rocks off is patently absurd! I don't respect anything about homosexuality and I never will. No point in pretending. Get over it.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 2:58 PM  

I can't know for sure. It's equally true that I can't know for sure that upon death we all enter a place where Jesus Christ is conducting and overseeing a 24-hour orgy in which he is constantly F*cking a goat and reciting the lyrics to "Es zittern die morschen Knochen".

Please go to a mosque and say that about Mohammed.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 2:59 PM  

"My daughter is having a same-sex blessing at her home, and has asked me to attend. As a Christian I am torn - do I go and support her (indirectly supporting her decision) or do I skip it, risking damaging my relationship in the future."

That's an easy one.

The tougher is: "Do I invite my gay sister who will bring her companion to my young child's birthday party? Knowing that if she was straight I'd allow her and her shack-up boyfriend to come."

The heart of the matter is when and where do our we do best not to associate with unrepentant sinners who know they are in sin?

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 3:00 PM  

And by "tolerate" you mean "shut up about"? "Stop expressing opinions about"? "Saying hurtful stuff"?

1. Speech, in my view, doesn't matter. So your examples, I don't care about. It's literally the definition of "your house, your rules". So long as it passes other tests of legality (i.e. the imminent harm exceptions to the first amendment), I am fine with it.

2. Discrimination against homosexuals in public accommodations, employment, or other matters - that's where the issue is.

I am very sympathetic to conservatives on this matter because I see their view as consistent. Up until, I don't know, the early 1900's, you could discriminate against anyone you wanted as a private person or business owner. "No Irish Need Apply" - perfectly legal. It's an element of the 1st amendment - free association.

The concept of a public accommodation, which must be offered to all comers is a major blow to this right. It means you aren't the sole master of your business. You must serve those who you wish to discriminate against. The same thing is true of the ADA (essentially a republican law, ironically), which forces private individuals and businesses to accommodate a certain group of people, at their own expense.

My view as a leftist is that free association is not absolutely applicable, and as such, government can pass laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations. This should not affect private relationships at all.

Right now though, what I see happening is that conservatives want a government permission slip to be free from the repercussions of their choices. Many want to be able to discriminate, and then be protected from those repercussions by having carve outs from the law, or special protections. This is not-consistent with prior law. It would be as though I wanted a carve-out to be able to discriminate against blacks or Mexicans and not serve them lunch at my restaurant because a religious text describes them as unclear mud people. It's fine to think that, however, you can't discriminate against them for that reason.



Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 3:01 PM  

The heart of the matter is when and where do our best not to associate with unrepentant sinners who know they are in sin?

Ahh...you must know my family and my summer cabin problems. I have a number of nieces / nephews who want to bring their boyfriends / girlfriends to water ski, fish and swim, then enjoy the coupling that married couples enjoy. Last summer I categorically told my nephew that he and his girlfriend were welcome, but they were to sleep in separate beds. He groaned - his mother groaned, but I held firm. Then...2 AM when I got up i noticed them shacked together on the couch - right outside my kids bedrooms.

I yanked him up by the ear and told him to pack his stuff and leave. His mother (my sis-in-law) still hasn't spoken to me (this is actually a good thing, but makes for uncomfortable holidays).

Anonymous Tad? April 17, 2013 3:01 PM  

SWPL is my religion.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 3:04 PM  

"My daughter is having a same-sex blessing at her home, and has asked me to attend. As a Christian I am torn - do I go and support her (indirectly supporting her decision) or do I skip it, risking damaging my relationship in the future."

If your daughter was going to tattoo her face... would you go hold her hand while she did it?

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:06 PM  

I yanked him up by the ear and told him to pack his stuff and leave. His mother (my sis-in-law) still hasn't spoken to me (this is actually a good thing, but makes for uncomfortable holidays).

Good for you. That's the right way to handle it.

Anonymous DonReynolds April 17, 2013 3:06 PM  

The Lord loves a sinner that comes to His understanding. Unlike so many other religions in this world, Christianity is big on forgiveness. A sinner is not condemned for all time. Forgiveness is freely granted to any who sincerely apply....this is God's grace, undeserved and unearned. Where else can you get a better deal? Nowhere.

(Calvinist footnote: Does God know if and when you will abandon a life of sin to follow Christ? Absolutely.)

Blogger Beefy Levinson April 17, 2013 3:09 PM  

"How could a good and loving God send anyone to hell?"

He doesn't. God sends no one to hell who doesn't freely choose to turn away from Him through sin. If a man goes to hell it is, pun intended, his own damned fault.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 3:10 PM  

Last summer I categorically told my nephew that he and his girlfriend were welcome, but they were to sleep in separate beds.

So if one of your nieces wanted to bring her non-platonic girlfriend you'd invite them, but request they sleep in separate beds?

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 3:11 PM  

"My daughter is having a same-sex blessing at her home, and has asked me to attend. As a Christian I am torn - do I go and support her (indirectly supporting her decision) or do I skip it, risking damaging my relationship in the future."

Thank God for those quotation marks, because otherwise I would have gotten very angry.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:11 PM  

(Calvinist footnote: Does God know if and when you will abandon a life of sin to follow Christ? Absolutely.)

If you're a calvinist, God meant for you to sin...

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 3:11 PM  

For homo's to march in the streets and demand that I must demonstrate respect for the way they choose to get their rocks off is patently absurd! I don't respect anything about homosexuality and I never will. No point in pretending. Get over it.

It's true that this does happen - homosexuals marching for social acceptance. But, the most serious protests were simply the right to have the freedom to engage in homosexual acts in the first place. Once you accept that government can regulate certain sex acts, it's just a popularity content. Whining when you lose the popularity contest is simply bad form.

The battle has now shifted onto marriage, which conservatives have just about completely lost. Many others have demonstrated that Christians lost as soon they let the state into the marriage business.

There is very little coherent room to disagree with the legality of gay marriage, but to argue that other marriages that are defective by the same standards are continued to be permitted. Denying homosexuals legal marriage, while permitting re-marriage, divorce, and all sorts of marriages with other defects is simply discriminating, and is inequitable. The reasons to do so are all centered around things which are either (a) religious in nature or (b) subject to popular opinion, which you are in the process of losing.

Anonymous woeruwe April 17, 2013 3:12 PM  

"The tougher is: "Do I invite my gay sister who will bring her companion to my young child's birthday party? Knowing that if she was straight I'd allow her and her shack-up boyfriend to come.""

A shack-up boyfriend is immoral but not a perversion. It doesn't violate natural law. Thomas Aquinas wrote that masturbation is worse than monogamous fornication for that reason.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:14 PM  

Thomas Aquinas wrote that masturbation is worse than monogamous fornication for that reason.

You're an idiot.

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 3:15 PM  

A shack-up boyfriend is immoral but not a perversion. It doesn't violate natural law. Thomas Aquinas wrote that masturbation is worse than monogamous fornication for that reason.

Presumably they are using birth control, which is a perversion. Now what?

Anonymous Anonymous April 17, 2013 3:16 PM  

As a child, Chu adored the song “Jesus Loves Me.”

Remember this song in the Bible?

Anonymous Anonymous April 17, 2013 3:16 PM  

"If you're a calvinist, God meant for you to sin..."

You mean hyper-calvinist. But continue your bashing...

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 3:17 PM  

I want to organize Humility Pride. We put on literal sackcloths and literally throw ashes on ourselves and otherwise grotesquely debase ourselves, while carrying signs like "Proud to be humble".

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:17 PM  

The battle has now shifted onto marriage, which conservatives have just about completely lost. Many others have demonstrated that Christians lost as soon they let the state into the marriage business.

Correct on both counts.

Anonymous weor April 17, 2013 3:17 PM  

For reading Aquinas?

Anonymous DonReynolds April 17, 2013 3:18 PM  

I will differ from my Roman Catholic friends here on the subject of divorce. The Bible does provide for divorce and nowhere in the Bible does it refute that understanding. Homosexuality, beastiality, and incest are clearly proscribed and nowhere in the Bible does it depart from those rules. I do not have a problem with people who divorce, particularly since it can be initiated by one party (usually the woman) over the objections of the other. Yes, adultery is considered reasonable cause for divorce.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 3:18 PM  

"So if one of your nieces wanted to bring her non-platonic girlfriend you'd invite them, but request they sleep in separate beds?"

No. Both would be unwelcome.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:19 PM  

I want to organize Humility Pride. We put on literal sackcloths and literally throw ashes on ourselves and otherwise grotesquely debase ourselves, while carrying signs like "Proud to be humble".

Wouldn't that look exactly like occupy wall street?

Anonymous weoru April 17, 2013 3:19 PM  

"Presumably they are using birth control, which is a perversion. Now what?"

Then they're both equally perversions, I guess.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:21 PM  

For reading Aquinas?

No.

For accepting his asinine torture of logic in that instance.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:23 PM  

Then they're both equally perversions, I guess.

What if they're married?

Anonymous weoro April 17, 2013 3:24 PM  

There's no tortured logic. Is masturbation your one cherished perversion?

Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 3:24 PM  

"So if one of your nieces wanted to bring her non-platonic girlfriend you'd invite them, but request they sleep in separate beds?"

If this were the case she'd know not to even bother.

Anonymous weoro April 17, 2013 3:26 PM  

"What if they're married?"

Marriage doesn't make an unnatural activity natural.

Anonymous JP (real one) April 17, 2013 3:28 PM  

"She was working as an associate pastor at a conservative church"

Well, that explains a lot. Dabney nailed "conservatism's" trajectory over a century ago.

http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/11/robert-lewis-dabney-on-conservatism/

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:29 PM  

There's no tortured logic. Is masturbation your one cherished perversion?

Kind of you to assume my cherished perversions are limited to one.

The logic is tortured because it places something condemned by scripture above something unaddressed by scripture.

What of oral or anal sex in the marriage bed? What of sex when one partner is infertile?

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 3:29 PM  

A shack-up boyfriend is immoral but not a perversion. It doesn't violate natural law. Thomas Aquinas wrote that masturbation is worse than monogamous fornication for that reason.

He did nothing of the sort. Seriously, you're going to try to pass off nonsense about Aquinas here, of all places? You're citing an attempt to take one thing Aquinas said about something unrelated, twist it, and ignore what he said about the relevant matter in that very same article.


Article 12, reply to Objection 4: "Gravity of a sin depends more on the abuse of a thing than on the omission of the right use. Wherefore among sins against nature, the lowest place belongs to the sin of uncleanness, which consists in the mere omission of copulation with another. While the most grievous is the sin of bestiality, because use of the due species is not observed. Hence a gloss on Genesis 37:2, "He accused his brethren of a most wicked crime," says that "they copulated with cattle." After this comes the sin of sodomy, because use of the right sex is not observed. Lastly comes the sin of not observing the right manner of copulation, which is more grievous if the abuse regards the "vas" than if it affects the manner of copulation in respect of other circumstances."

Masturbation is uncleanness, "the omission of copulation with another". It is the least of the sins against nature.

I suggest that you consider not attempting to discuss what authors you have not read have written with people who have actually read those authors.

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:35 PM  

Vox, you have sinned against nature by dialectically sodomizing weoro.

Anonymous Porky April 17, 2013 3:38 PM  

Dh, you completely ignored the question about "Christian tolerance" and went on a rant about legality of discrimination and telling mexicans they can't eat at your restaurant.

I'll dumb down the question. What do you mean by "Do Christians need to tolerate...?"

Keep it pithy and on target, please.



Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 3:40 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 3:42 PM  

Thank God for those quotation marks, because otherwise I would have gotten very angry.

I know better than to misuse a quote around you "votka Markku."

Anonymous T14 April 17, 2013 3:43 PM  

Having only read The Bible and Aquinas in painfully rushed Western Canon course, I can't claim anything but a passing familiarity. But the unrepentant onanist is just as SOL as the unrepentant homosexual, no?

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 3:44 PM  

I'll dumb down the question. What do you mean by "Do Christians need to tolerate...?"
Sorry. I'll try.

"Tolerate" means to provide equal public accommodation to, and legal equanimity with, the majority.

Speech, hurt feelings, saying mean things, excluding from religious whatever, etc are all not part of "tolerate". This isn't a static definition within the left, as I said, I can only speak for myself.

Likewise, for private accommodations, say a members only golf club, can discriminate on any basis they wish.

Anonymous Porky April 17, 2013 3:48 PM  

Dh, none of that has to do with Christian tolerance. It's legal stuff relevant to anybody.

Are you simply asking whether Christians need to obey the law? You seem to be masking your premise.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 3:50 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Tom April 17, 2013 3:50 PM  

@VD: Are you going to put up a similar post on Alpha Game decrying the unrepentant fornication of people like RooshV and Roissy?

(Although, I find it odd how Roosh seems to have begun realizing what Solomon did before him, that chasing tail is just chasing the wind.)

Anonymous Frederick303 April 17, 2013 3:52 PM  

As a divorced christen fellow, who has sinned and accepts that fact, I would throw this out to A. Man.

You seem angry with Christianity as it preaches something that makes you feel in your very heart that you have fallen short in a very significant way. That is at the core of why you are angry with Christianity. If you did not in some deep way feel there was the very real possibility that the Christen world-view had merit, you would simply chuckle over these foolish rubes and go your own way. But you cannot, and rather than face this very fundamental fact, you rage against that which you suspect is true. You long for the faithful to tell you that your predilection is OK, for then perhaps you could live with the deep seated difficulties you are dealing with.

The same seems to be true of most homosexuals, which is why I suspect they spend so much time trying to penetrate various denominations (such as the Episcopalians and Lutherans) and turn these institutions into something that asserts the basic good of buggery. Such efforts are very destructive, as can be seen with what occurred with the Episcopalians. The Jews had 10 commandments, Jesus took them down to 2, and the Episcopalians rendered these 2 down into but 1: “thou shall love buggery with all thy heart” or be forced out of the church. The result was very destructive to the church.

This is why I suspect that homo tendencies are condemned. Unlike other sins those caught under its spell become slaves to a simple act. The need to have that act validated is so overwhelming they will seek to subvert any and every institution to proclaiming that fact. Be it the boy scouts, the church or the military, respectively created to satisfy the character, spiritual and defense; must all proclaim goodness of bugger or be destroyed, no matter what other good they do or will be lost by the institutions reorientation. That is the great evil of homosexuality I suspect, the manner in which it demands deference before all other life’s considerations.

Ponder his A. Man, Christians do not condemn the homosexual act as sin (or deny that we are sinners ourselves) because we get to beat up on Homosexuals; but because we have been told it is by that aspect of the divine we think we understand. You may long to have validation by the Church, but Christians simply cannot do this; we do not possess the power to proclaim that which is sinful is now suddenly not. From what I have seen the hatred is not on the part of the church, but those that are so immersed in sin they cannot bear to be parted from it and hate those that simply speak the truth about it.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 3:52 PM  

I'll pick on Markku a little...

So let's say your sister has a long term partner and lives down the road, you are having a big family and it is not any sort of specific religious occasion but just a party. Do you invite your sister knowing that she won't come unless she can bring her partner?

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 3:53 PM  

I know better than to misuse a quote around you "votka Markku."

I was thinking more along the lines of it being your own question as opposed to one you are relaying to us as an example.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 3:54 PM  

Porky
DH isn't masking anything. He's answered your questions explicitly. I suggest if you have a point you attempt to make it.

Anonymous Porky April 17, 2013 3:54 PM  

Are you going to put up a similar post on Alpha Game decrying the unrepentant fornication of people like RooshV and Roissy?

Roissy's got 16 commandments. God's only got 10.

Roissy wins!

Anonymous Josh April 17, 2013 3:54 PM  

Are you going to put up a similar post on Alpha Game decrying the unrepentant fornication of people like RooshV and Roissy?

Roosh and Roissy aren't demanding that the church let them in and sanctify their sin.

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 3:57 PM  

My actual sister would know better than to ask, but I'd tell her that she can come with her if she so chooses, but I will publicly state my opinion on the matter, and that coming alone or not at all would probably result in less embarrassment.

Anonymous VD April 17, 2013 3:57 PM  

@VD: Are you going to put up a similar post on Alpha Game decrying the unrepentant fornication of people like RooshV and Roissy?

No, why would I do that? Roosh and Roissy are perfectly willing to admit that God is not enamored of their actions. The fornicators are not attacking Christianity and the Church. The homosexuals are.

Anonymous woer April 17, 2013 3:59 PM  

I'm perfectly willing to accept correction, but first three questions. Is masturbation a sin against nature? Is simple fornication a sin against nature? According to Aquinas, is a sin against nature worse than a sin that doesn't violate natural law?

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 4:00 PM  

publicly state my opinion on the matter

So you would use the occasion to make a public statement in front of the guests about their relationship at a dinner, or they'd already know that you don't approve and probably would be uncomfortable?

Blogger JDC April 17, 2013 4:01 PM  

I was thinking more along the lines of it being your own question as opposed to one you are relaying to us as an example.

I followed this situation by sharing the scenario I have been presented with a number of times. Not my daughter...other people's daughters. It never gets old. Try talking to a 92 y/o great great grandmother who has just been invited to her gay grandson's wedding. It's great fun (he said sarcastically).

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 4:02 PM  

I would clarify to the guests that their presence doesn't imply my acceptance, an that the opposite is actually the case.

If I was not the host, then I wouldn't speak my mind unless the topic came up.

Anonymous CS Loopus April 17, 2013 4:03 PM  

Somehow Jesus was able to dine with prostitutes without supporting/celebrating/agreeing with the sin of prostitution. Very odd fellow.

Blogger Nate April 17, 2013 4:05 PM  

"Somehow Jesus was able to dine with prostitutes without supporting/celebrating/agreeing with the sin of prostitution. Very odd fellow."

And some of those prostitutes gave up prostitution and followed Him. And some of them did not. Did you see Him going back to them and begging them to come with Him?

And when He did dine with the prostitutes... did He take children along?

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 4:07 PM  

Dh, none of that has to do with Christian tolerance. It's legal stuff relevant to anybody.

Are you simply asking whether Christians need to obey the law? You seem to be masking your premise.


It's two questions, I suppose:

1. Should they obey the law? Is a civil law that provides legal recognition to unrepentant sinners be tolerated(i.e. obeyed)?

2. Should Christians seek to actively order civil law to discriminate against behavior which they find to be sinful? Examples:

a. homosexual sexual acts
b. masturbation
c. use of birth control
d. cursing
e. making oaths
f. perverted heterosexual acts
g. divorce
h. gluttony

Anonymous A. Man2 April 17, 2013 4:08 PM  

@ JartStar

regarding Matt 5:28

Attraction is not the same as lust. The PIE root implies an inability to control oneself, without restraint. I can have an attraction to someone, even sexually, without it turning to lust.

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 4:08 PM  

As for attending a gay wedding, never, not under any circumstances. No matter how close family.

Anonymous JP (real one) April 17, 2013 4:09 PM  

"Somehow Jesus was able to dine with prostitutes without supporting/celebrating/agreeing with the sin of prostitution. Very odd fellow."

But He was also a judgemental type who said stuff like "Go and sin no more" to women who slept around. He wouldn't fit in at all with the modern/selective "tolerance" movement.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 4:12 PM  

I would clarify to the guests that their presence doesn't imply my acceptance, an that the opposite is actually the case.

Would you do the same if she was cohabitating with a man?

I suppose my question comes down to one of explicit vs. tacit consent of an unrepentant sinner's choices.

Going to a gay "marriage" is obviously explicit. Going to a party with unrepentant sinners is neutral. Inviting unrepentant sinners into your house without using the occasion to tell them of their sin, tacit?

Anonymous dh April 17, 2013 4:12 PM  

The fornicators are not attacking Christianity and the Church. The homosexuals are.

VD, are you trying to tell us that serial pickup artists do not place additional value on debasing the daughters of religiously orientated families, pastors daughters, or others who are seen as high value because of their perceived religiousness? Would this not qualify as attacking Christianity? Making an example out of congregants certainly seems to be an attack.

Blogger Joe A. April 17, 2013 4:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Anonymous April 17, 2013 4:16 PM  

ok... i have not read a single comment and will not.... somone must have said it... hate the sin love the sinner. " go and sin no more". old white guy has said this.

Blogger Markku April 17, 2013 4:19 PM  

Would you do the same if she was cohabitating with a man?

No, because that wouldn't be on everybody's mind. A cohabiting couple looks like a married couple. People have to be in the know. And especially, it doesn't confuse the kids just by its appearance.

But I could be wrong on this one. I could imagine realizing later that this was just plain cowardice.

Blogger ray April 17, 2013 4:23 PM  

Don't. Not even as a joke. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the matter and claim no authority.


a healthy attitude; the essay is sufficient

looking around amerika at folks calling themselves "Pastor" i overwhelmingly see cowardice, falseness, pride, and lives of worldly acquisition and compromise

Jeshua = Truth, so wherever the truth is being sought, and embraced -- particularly when guided by Scripture -- that's where the real Church is

the Church sure isnt on Mars Hill, or in the hypocritical, grovelling, female-run "churches" of modern times (about to get permanently remodeled)

Father gave us masculinity as a unique gift, and he hates to see it degraded, inverted, and mocked by homosexuality -- it directly denies Him, corrupts the wider culture, and opens participants to demonic invasion and enslavement, about which they are usually ignorant, having been assured instead that they are being Liberated, self-actualized, and empowered

no wonder satan's nation sells homosexuality so fervently to it's populace, and to the world

Anonymous JP (real one) April 17, 2013 4:25 PM  

"VD, are you trying to tell us that serial pickup artists do not place additional value on debasing the daughters of religiously orientated families... Would this not qualify as attacking Christianity?"

I have no idea what PUAs put value on (I'm sure it depends on the individual). However, they are certainly not a disproportionately influential, well-funded lobby who attack the church, marriage, companies whom they oppose, Boy Scouts and anyone else in their way.

That's one of the worst apples-to-oranges comparisons I've seen in some time...and I regularly see bad ones.

Blogger JartStar April 17, 2013 4:26 PM  

But I could be wrong on this one. I could imagine realizing later that this was just plain cowardice.

It's tough because of where to draw the line. One could make the argument that by inviting a devout Muslim neighbor to your kid's birthday party (without condemning them) that you are giving explicit consent to Islam. A devout Muslim most certainly rejected Jesus as Savior.

Anonymous A. Man2 April 17, 2013 4:27 PM  

A question for the ilk:

How do you know someone's homosexual? It's a serious question. Have you seen them having sex a same-sex partner? Have they told you? Do they engage in lewd public conduct that comes just close enough to sex just short of indecent exposure?

What exactly is being endorsed if one attends some sort of commitment ceremony for two people of the same sex? Further, it seems that the socially destructive effects of polygamy are more obvious than that of SSM. Therefore, would you have no problem with attending the marriage of a man to an additional wife if the state endorsed someone marrying multiple partners of opposite sexes?

I have two same-sex customers who have been together for almost eighteen years and know several of their other gay friends. Their friends claim those two men are monogamous and I have no idea of the extent of their sex life. From what I understand a very sizable minority of gay men restrict themselves to mutual masturbation, and I have known a man who refused to do anything more than that because he was ashamed of anything beyond that. Do you make a distinction between different types of homosexuality?

The issue is a very complicated one and is probably not subject to a blanket rule under scripture. I certainly would not associate with gays who exhibited public lewdness but I think it's rather a stretch to avoid all contact with homosexuals.

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