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Saturday, August 24, 2013

Predictable consequences

It's absolutely hilarious to see the mainstream media and government employees complaining about private citizens putting what they have learned from the IRS and the mortgage banks into action:
“It must be a mistake,” he said, when the loan officer told him that someone had placed liens totaling more than $25 million on his house and on other properties he owned.

But as Sheriff Stanek soon learned, the liens, legal claims on property to secure the payment of a debt, were just the earliest salvos in a war of paper, waged by a couple who had lost their home to foreclosure in 2009 — a tactic that, with the spread of an anti-government ideology known as the “sovereign citizen” movement, is being employed more frequently as a way to retaliate against perceived injustices.

Over the next three years, the couple, Thomas and Lisa Eilertson, filed more than $250 billion in liens, demands for compensatory damages and other claims against more than a dozen people, including the sheriff, county attorneys, the Hennepin County registrar of titles and other court officials.

“It affects your credit rating, it affected my wife, it affected my children,” Sheriff Stanek said of the liens. “We spent countless hours trying to undo it.”

Cases involving sovereign citizens are surfacing increasingly here in Minnesota and in other states, posing a challenge to law enforcement officers and court officials, who often become aware of the movement — a loose network of groups and individuals who do not recognize the authority of federal, state or municipal government — only when they become targets. Although the filing of liens for outrageous sums or other seemingly frivolous claims might appear laughable, dealing with them can be nightmarish, so much so that the F.B.I. has labeled the strategy “paper terrorism.” A lien can be filed by anyone under the Uniform Commercial Code.
These liens, and many of the "frivolous" claims made by various private citizens are not necessarily fraudulent in the legal sense. There can be no question that they are no more fake than the millions of liens and foreclosures filed by mortgage banks that never held title to the properties they seized and no more illegal than the private MERS system that those banks tried to substitute for the historical county land records.

That is precisely why dealing with them can be so nightmarish; because they are as legal and legally enforceable as anything that the courts produce.  This is nothing but a natural consequence of the government declaring itself and its agents above the rule of law and then being surprised when the people follow its lead.

This is how a civilization falls, one step into barbaric chaos at a time. 

Labels: ,

111 Comments:

Blogger JCclimber August 24, 2013 10:09 AM  

Hmmm. Is this loose network only in Minnesota and other states? Is that lazy reporting? They could have at least said that they were able to track down cases in 4 or 5 other states doing Google searches while doing "research" for this article.

Ah, public schooling at its finest.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 10:13 AM  

And speaking of barbaric chaos:

The pResident wants the same immunity as this child

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 10:20 AM  

Another example of barbaric chaos?

All those recently killed by vibrants were supporters of St Trayvon?

There does also seem to be an interesting background there.

Anonymous Susan August 24, 2013 10:37 AM  

I am usually "down with the struggle" when you post articles regarding LEO corruption. I agree with what they are doing against the banks and mortgage companies. Having dealt with one for a while, it can be a real headache.

But I am just not sympathetic to these people filing a frivolous lien on the Sheriff because his deputies are doing their jobs by serving papers. They are officers of the Court and this is what they do. Isn't this blog big on personal responsibility, and not getting in over your head?

I am not trying to be obtuse or difficult here. It is just hard to have sympathy for people who get in over their heads and don't want to have to deal with the aftermath.

Blogger Kate Paulk August 24, 2013 10:42 AM  

I have to admit I'm surprised it's taken this long. I could see it coming when the Obama administration overturned established bankruptcy laws to protect the auto workers unions, shafting numerous pension funds in the process. The robosigning mortgage frauds only made it more obvious.

The authorities should be thankful that people are still using the legal system, albeit using it against them. That means there's still a certain amount of faith left in rule of law. It might be eroding fast, but it's still there.

When enough people have no faith in rule of law, it's over, and the authorities have nothing but themselves to blame. They're the ones who gutted the constitution: don't blame us for recognizing the fact.

Anonymous a_peraspera August 24, 2013 10:43 AM  

Sounds like Alinsky-style tactics to me - overwhelm the system by forcing it to follow its own rules.

Unfortunately, now that the government is becoming aware of this stuff they will just wave it away with a bang of the gavel. Basically if a government official approves of something it's legal, if it disapproves it's illegal. There is no actual law. You have no recourse except to try and get a "bigger" government official to rule your way.

Anonymous VD August 24, 2013 10:51 AM  

But I am just not sympathetic to these people filing a frivolous lien on the Sheriff because his deputies are doing their jobs by serving papers.

I am. The sheriff doesn't give a damn how valid the papers are... except when they are filed by someone who isn't important. Try calling the sheriff about the bank's agents breaking into your house and putting a lock on it.

Anonymous MrGreenMan August 24, 2013 10:53 AM  

I shed a tear for those servants of the beast on whom the beast has now been turned. Now, truly, it is an issue worth reporting, that the wrong people, and by wrong I mean right, are being consumed by the eyeless all-consuming maw and thrust into the insatiable stomach of the false god Democracy.

Anonymous VD August 24, 2013 10:54 AM  

Basically if a government official approves of something it's legal, if it disapproves it's illegal. There is no actual law.

Or as the lawyers always feel very sophisticated when they say: the law is whatever the judge says it to be. This is merely an extension of that: the law is whatever the Fish & Wildlife officer, IRS agent, or state trooper says it to be.

OpenID artisanaltoadshall August 24, 2013 10:56 AM  

@Susan
But I am just not sympathetic to these people filing a frivolous lien on the Sheriff because his deputies are doing their jobs by serving papers. They are officers of the Court and this is what they do. Isn't this blog big on personal responsibility, and not getting in over your head?

Cupcake, would you likewise be sympathetic to the concentration camp commandant who got ass-raped in prison after being prosecuted and convicted for "just doing his job?" OK, I understand, his guards raped that 14 year old girl hourly for 26 days before she finally died, but they were just doing their jobs keeping all those slobs in line. Right? She probably enjoyed it at some point, right? So why should we hold either the guards or the commandant accountable? Everything they did was perfectly legal!

Morality, dear.

Anonymous VD August 24, 2013 10:56 AM  

The authorities should be thankful that people are still using the legal system, albeit using it against them.... When enough people have no faith in rule of law, it's over, and the authorities have nothing but themselves to blame.

Precisely. What do they think these desperate people are going to do when they take this method of recourse away from them, just give up and die? Paper liens may be unpleasant, but they are preferable to projectiles.

Anonymous Mr.A is Mr.A August 24, 2013 10:58 AM  

Perhaps the fact that "the F.B.I. has labeled the strategy 'paper terrorism'" should lead the FBI to label bankruptcies and/or foreclosures based questionable mortgages to be "bank-based fiscal terrorism".

Or perhaps some factions in the FBI are too quick to bandy about the word "terrorism."

Anonymous MrGreenMan August 24, 2013 11:09 AM  

@Mr. A is Mr. A
Or perhaps some factions in the FBI are too quick to bandy about the word "terrorism."

I didn't think that it would get there that quickly, but if using the courts is terrorism, terrorist now joins raciss, sexist, homophobe, rape, abuse, etc as words without meaning that are just to get you to cower and genuflect before the person using it.

Anonymous BillB August 24, 2013 11:09 AM  

The only ones to blame from the problems in the USA and elsewhere are We the People. We abrogated our duties and were derelict in our actions. We re-elected corrupt politicians who brought home the bacon, and were to ignorant or too stupid to understand that no bacon is allowed under the federal Constitution. We the People are ignorant of our heritage, our language, the use of our language, and above all We the People are ignorant of true honor. We can blame the politicians all we want but We the People elected them and We the People sent our children to the public schools that brain-washed generations. Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Then you are brain-washed and can't read the English used in the Constitution because most of the Pledge is a lie. The Pledge was written by a socialist and has been used to destroy state sovereignty by brain-washing people into transferring their allegiance from their real nation, the state in which they live, to the fake, non-existent federal nation.

Should something like this happen to me. I will deal with it in a personal way and with anyone who gets in my way.

Anonymous Rally August 24, 2013 11:22 AM  

The term paper terrorism is what disturbs me. Coming from a government that won't call Nidal Hassan a terrorist.

Anonymous Hov August 24, 2013 11:31 AM  

Vox,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on MERS. When I first learned about it through work, I was very surprised because it seemed like the banks cared more about what MERS said than what the actual county records say. I also thought it was strange that a person will take out a mortgage with one bank, and pretty much a week later that mortgage gets sold to another bank who will never set foot in my state unless there's a foreclosure.

Anonymous Myrddin August 24, 2013 11:31 AM  

@BillB

Didn't vote for them. Didn't go to public school. Won't send my chillens to public school. Don't say the Pledge. Know my lineage back to Robin Hood and my Heritage to Adam.

Who's this we you speak of, Kemosabe?

I come here, in part, in my quest for solutions (so far all I've got is be thrifty, make babies, and train them to be ninja), and while the last thing I will claim to be is perfect, I'm goin on your We The People list any more than I'm putting myself on His Holiness's "Them The Racists" list. Nor, I suspect, will many here.

Collective responsibility is a Leftist trope.

Anonymous p-dawg August 24, 2013 11:35 AM  

@BillB: You give voting too much credit. It's not like they're going to let an honest guy run for anything higher than dogcatcher. It doesn't really matter who gets the votes. The important thing is who is on the ballot.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 11:36 AM  

Basically if a government official approves of something it's legal, if it disapproves it's illegal.

What used to be a Banksta Republic is now a Gangsta Republic.

Anonymous VD August 24, 2013 11:41 AM  

I'd like to hear your thoughts on MERS.

It is a complete fraud and totally illegal in nearly every way.

Anonymous Godfrey August 24, 2013 11:45 AM  

Welcome to our world assholes.

Anonymous hardscrabble farmer August 24, 2013 11:51 AM  

I have been noticing with increasing frequency around these parts a vast swath of the local population that think nothing of doing end runs around the system. They understand that the power of the State (and by that I mean all forms of government from local to federal) is not one that serves their interests. People no longer take out building permits, they simply conceal their new addition/shed/barn whatever. They no longer register off road vehicles, boats, snowmobiles, dogs cats, whatever. Everyone barters for everything all the time, offer cash discounts (and you know what that means) and otherwise go as far out of their way to tell the Man to pound sand. Funny, that. If you're local up here you don't even worry about the cops-they never pul anyone over for expired tags or inspections unless you're from out of state because they know how close TSHTF is and they don't want to make any enemies.

A corrupt system breeds corruption. 4th of July around here used to be US flags everywhere, now people go to watch fireworks, but blatant shows of patriotism (support of FEDGOV) are seen as suspicious and morally questionable. Aside from the Obama stickers on the school teachers cars I'd say most every person I speak with has nothing but animosity towards everything related to TPTB.

Anonymous a_peraspera August 24, 2013 11:59 AM  

Vox, have you seen the case in New Mexico where a wedding photographer declined to work a gay wedding and was handed a court judgement of $6600?

Seems to have interesting implications RE: the 13th Amendment. i.e., if a gay tells you to work for him, you must comply or be fined by the government. Sounds like slavery to me.

Link: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/356498/nm-supreme-court-finds-refusing-photograph-gay-wedding-illegal-sterling-beard

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 12:00 PM  

Everyone barters for everything all the time, offer cash discounts (and you know what that means)

Retailers seem to be looking at early Christmas sales this year, but unemployment seems to be up.

Cisco is dumping 4,000 employees when profits have not yet slumped (compared to last year). Maybe they can see what is coming down the road and getting ready.

Anonymous Noah B. August 24, 2013 12:04 PM  

It's just heart wrenching hearing these stories of innocent, hard-working government employees who are just minding their own business who are bullied and victimized by citizens for no reason at all.

Anonymous p-dawg August 24, 2013 12:08 PM  

@a_peraspera: Were those photographers licensed by the state, engaging in business or commerce affecting a public interest? Because if so, they have no right to refuse service to the state's protected classes. (And obviously they were, because of how the judgement went) You can't accept the benefits of the state on one hand while rejecting its regulation on the other. That doesn't work in court, and it isn't even morally correct.

Anonymous Noah B. August 24, 2013 12:09 PM  

"Seems to have interesting implications RE: the 13th Amendment. i.e., if a gay tells you to work for him, you must comply or be fined by the government. Sounds like slavery to me."

It's a logical extension of civil rights laws, which already undermine freedom of association and freedom of commerce. With any luck, this case will help those who have supported government meddling in private affairs to understand that all of these laws are unjust.

Anonymous Noah B. August 24, 2013 12:11 PM  

"You can't accept the benefits of the state on one hand while rejecting its regulation on the other."

Engaging in commerce is a fundamental right, not a "benefit of the state." To believe otherwise is to believe in total government control.

Anonymous GreyS August 24, 2013 12:17 PM  

I'd guess that from now on there will be tons of these paperwork/red tape cases. Not just in liens but also in many other ways. A few months ago, a post here talked about taking the offensive in battling back in sexual harassment stuff, and with all the quasi-legal pressure being put on people (like the wedding photographers above) and organizations regarding homosexuality-- there might be a legalese paperwork blowback against a lot of the people who attack innocent people and orgs and against all the countless low-level officials who take part in those attacks.

Blogger mmaier2112 August 24, 2013 12:31 PM  

No joke, Noah. Once you accept the idea of forced association for ANY reason, you have no leg to stand on.

I'm fine with a racist having a "No Crackas" policy on his business' door.

Just like I'm fine with a similar sign saying "No Niggers".

The only folks that should be forced to associate with everyone are government offices for official business. Everyone else, from banks to gas stations, should be free to discriminate as their owners' policies dictate.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 12:55 PM  

I can't wait for Boris or Phoenician to turn up and tell us how immoral and childish it is to retaliate against the authorities that love us so much and provide us with so many opportunities to help others.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 1:02 PM  

The owners of these homes should think about taking out liens on the property of city officials and the contractor.

Anonymous Heh August 24, 2013 1:20 PM  

Wouldn't it be a shame if a perpetual storm of liens descended on the SFWA and its board members?

Anonymous tiredofitall August 24, 2013 1:20 PM  

"This is merely an extension of that: the law is whatever the Fish & Wildlife officer, IRS agent, or state trooper says it to be." - VD

Funny you should mention that. My uncle was recently up at his hunting cabin to ready it for the upcoming season only to find a bunch of Fish & Game officers milling around his property.

When he asked what they were doing there he was asked if he was the owner, and when he said yes was handed a ream of papers detailing "code violations" and a form that stated he'd been caught hunting out of season.

Which was a work of fiction worthy of getting the writer into the SFWA. My uncle is man of principles and is sure to maintain everything he owns. So he sat down and attempted to read through the thick as a phone book stack of transgressions.

He didn't even have to read beyond the first page.

The Fish & Game guys listed buildings that had been torn down back when Bush the Older was President, buildings that had been planned but never actually built, and apparently buildings that only THEY could see.

In the end he only got fined for some noise ordinance thing he couldn't prove didn't happen, and the hunting out of season was dismissed when they admitted another Fish & Game officer had actually asked my uncle to remove a deer carcass, and some busybody just assumed he'd been hunting.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum August 24, 2013 1:24 PM  

a wedding photographer declined to work a gay wedding and was handed a court judgement of $6600?

That's an easy one to solve. You offer to photograph their wedding, but jack up the price into the stratosphere.

You're not refusing to perform a service, and if they don't want to pay for it they don't have to hire you.

Blogger RobertT August 24, 2013 1:30 PM  

I'm predicting that we as a nation will let all the stuff that has come out in the last few months and years; the NSA, the IRS, the ties to the Muslim brotherhood, Benghazi, Obama lying, the grants of immunity from Obamacare to cronies, the massive debt, in effect the dismantling of America; we'll let that all pass with no more of a whisper than we've already seen. Nixon blew it. Clinton didn't. Obama turned it into an art form. Maybe we should all move to Italy. Doesn't look like there's much left here.

Anonymous MrGreenMan August 24, 2013 1:32 PM  

@Credo
That's an easy one to solve. You offer to photograph their wedding, but jack up the price into the stratosphere.

You're not refusing to perform a service, and if they don't want to pay for it they don't have to hire you.


No can do: There's a law on the books for everything. The stronger the German influence in the state laws, the stronger a law about "unlawful enrichment" or "unfair profiteering", or, if it's from the Civil Rights era, there will be something about providing unequal access to your public accommodation.

The problem is the public accommodation idea; suddenly, by permitting people to walk in your door to buy your service, you have agreed to provide this to the public, including free bathrooms, etc.

Anonymous Gx1080 August 24, 2013 1:34 PM  

Enemy soldiers put themselves on the line of fire, so I don't shed a tear for them. Speaking off, the stormtrooper known as civilServant should make his appereance soon to nag about how is unfair that people use the tactics of his team against themselves.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 24, 2013 1:40 PM  

"Paper terrorism"?

When everything is X, nothing is X.

When everything is terrorism, nothing is terrorism.

When everything is treason, nothing is treason.

Hey - "No Treason"... that sounds like a snappy title for a book. Someone should write a book like that.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 1:53 PM  

So let us not talk falsely now the hour is getting late.

There must be some kind of way out of here said the joker to the thief.

Blogger Some dude August 24, 2013 1:53 PM  

"Paper Terrorism"?

These people have no decency at all.

Anonymous Anonymous August 24, 2013 2:10 PM  

Interesting story. The actions and/or tactics of these sovereign movements are usually interesting in more ways than this story explores. However, with respect to the usage of U.C.C. liens, at least as described in the Minnesota story, I do not believe your characterization of this tactic is accurate.

1) The lien, lacking a legal derivative document, is fraudulent in the "legal sense."

2) They are, at least procedurally, "more fake" than the lien and foreclosure process abuses practiced by the big lenders in the real estate melt down.

3) They are neither as legal, nor are they as legally enforceable as "anything that the courts produce."

I have a great deal of adversarial experience with the "sovereign citizen" movement. They are very loosely connected, go by many different names, and share a penchant for moving tremendous amounts of legal sounding paper - primarily incoherent gibberish. I sympathize with much of the frustration providing the foundation for the movement, and have some substantive respect for their organic theories, but they have been greatly misled by the published lunacy of some of the more vocal leadership with respect to tactics. All government employees operating within the confines of their position would be defended against these actions by their respective agencies. They are not that difficult to unwind or defeat.

Me thinks the NY Times juiced this story a tad.

By the way I would publish this story under the ID JDMyers (not my name in the numerous "Freeman" judgments against me, but close) however I can't get your system to take it - hence anonymous.

Blogger Jehu August 24, 2013 2:11 PM  

You know, if I'm ever in a jury involved in any of this sort of thing, there's only one question for me. As Lenin would say, Who..Whom? Who cares what the black letter law says. Those rules of engagement are thoroughly breached. Therefore as far as I'm concerned, the group I like better gets to win, or at least to hang the jury.

Blogger Scott August 24, 2013 2:28 PM  

feedback loop
n.
The section of a control system that allows for feedback and self-correction and that adjusts its operation according to differences between the actual output and the desired output.

We'll see...

Anonymous Salt August 24, 2013 2:31 PM  

In Florida, years ago, people were liening everything in sight against state/federal actors who were acting themselves outside the law. These actors were ignoring the Fair Debt Collections Act and everything else they could ignore. It was tit for tat, all the way down the rabbit hole.

My understanding is that, back when, Florida enacted a law about proper filing. Florida had to squelch this liening crap. This applies to even the IRS, whom seldom do anything procedurally correct, which, of course, is how they have to do it because, simply put, they can't legally do it in the first place.

Blogger Cinco August 24, 2013 2:52 PM  

Bastiat nailed it:

1. The few plunder the many
2. The many plunder the few
3. Everybody plunders everybody...

We are somewhere between 2 and 3.

Anonymous kh123 August 24, 2013 2:57 PM  

Somewhat OT: Apparent paper trail left by the architects of financial deregulation.

Is Vice, so make of it what you will.

Blogger Bogey August 24, 2013 3:00 PM  

“It got me angry,” he said, “because at the end of the day, these two are bullies who think they can get their way by filing paper.”

Young fool. Only now at the end do you understand.

Anonymous kh123 August 24, 2013 3:03 PM  

"I can't wait for Boris or Phoenician to turn up and tell us how immoral and childish it is to retaliate against the authorities that love us so much and provide us with so many opportunities to help others."

No, we're all dipshits you see, who can't divine the finer aspects of progressive moral imperatives. There's no getting through to us - which is why they keep coming back to convince us on their MSNBC talking points.

Anonymous Anonymous August 24, 2013 3:07 PM  

REG

Excess litigation worked very well when the Democrats wanted to destroy Sarah Palin's governorship of Alaska. She was in court almost daily. Seems only fair that its example should be shared with the rest of the nation.
Photography
"You can't accept the benefits of the state on one hand while rejecting its regulation on the other."
If you consider being a 'citizen' of the US or New Mexico a benefit of the 'State.' a regulation, maybe. (accent marks for clarity of point.)
Doing so, Bosson (the judge) said, is “the price of citizenship.”
If providing services to disparate groups is the price of citizenship, is the law/rule of the land, which I doubt, then one can take a line from McRapy's example. Charge a high price for the service and give the excess to an anti- lobby. Never use your own funds like he and his rabbits did though. The idea is to make the other guy pay.

Anonymous VD August 24, 2013 3:15 PM  

They are, at least procedurally, "more fake" than the lien and foreclosure process abuses practiced by the big lenders in the real estate melt down.

How so? The banks have no titles, no nothing, just an entry in MERS for which the title was necessarily destroyed.

They are neither as legal, nor are they as legally enforceable as "anything that the courts produce."

Of course they are. The courts are just making everything up too. It merely has more convincing trappings. The court decisions are more enforceable, in that they can find someone to enforce them, but they are no more legal.

It's all BS from start to finish.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 3:19 PM  

The section of a control system that allows for feedback and self-correction and that adjusts its operation according to differences between the actual output and the desired output.

Is it positive or negative feedback?

Most politicians do not understand the difference. In fact most people don't understand the difference, but given that MPAI, I guess that is understandable.

Anonymous Porky August 24, 2013 3:20 PM  

- ...jack up the price into the stratosphere.

Can't do that. But you can say you're not available that weekend. Or the next. Or the next.

Anonymous Jack Amok August 24, 2013 3:25 PM  

What do they think these desperate people are going to do when they take this method of recourse away from them, just give up and die? Paper liens may be unpleasant, but they are preferable to projectiles.

No-Knock raids for everyone. What a glorious future we have, if we don't find a way to get out of the handbasket we're in.



Anonymous beerme August 24, 2013 3:28 PM  

Can't do that. But you can say you're not available that weekend. Or the next. Or the next.

Have a friend to hire you to do some nature photography at the local fishing hole every unbooked weekend with an easy cancellation clause.

Or just have a contract so loosely worded that you could send a smelly homeless man as your photographer.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 3:33 PM  

No-Knock raids for everyone. What a glorious future we have, if we don't find a way to get out of the handbasket we're in.

What Bob Dylan failed to understand is that all of the ways out of here involve sacrifice. Those being sacrificed won't like it.

Anonymous DT August 24, 2013 3:57 PM  

This is nothing but a natural consequence of the government declaring itself and its agents above the rule of law and then being surprised when the people follow its lead.

The only two things keeping me in check at this point in my life are God's law and fear of violent retribution from the government. I have zero respect or concern for U.S. law at any level. If it's in my interest to break U.S. law, if I can get away with it, and if I'm not violating God's law in doing so...I will do so.

And why shouldn't I? The would be slave masters who call themselves our leaders have no limits. No respect for their own laws much less God's. It feels like every single week another national example of their hypocrisy and treachery is exposed. Can you imagine what's going on that we don't know about?

I don't have any more loyalty or obligation to a nation run by these criminals then I would to the Mafia. I might pay the Mafia "protection money" to avoid violent confrontation for a time. But that doesn't mean I won't turn on them the moment I have the power to do so.

Mark my words, as more and more people tune out and turn against this regime, our politicians and cops will be shocked, just SHOCKED, that no one respects them and that people are even targeting them via legal...and illegal...means. They do so much after all! Thin blue line, you didn't build that, etc.

They are so full of themselves. They make the pharisees look like angelic servants of Christ.

Blogger tz August 24, 2013 4:10 PM  

@VD I'd like to hear your thoughts on MERS.
It is a complete fraud and totally illegal in nearly every way.


It is neither fraudulent or illegal until someone actually tries to take anything it says seriously.

It is more like someone taking money from the game of Monopoly and trying to pay for an espresso with it.

MERS is a virtual world with its own currency, rules, and structure, totally disjoint with anything in the real world. OK, maybe the initial structure include some real-world stuff.

Anonymous FP August 24, 2013 4:13 PM  

“It got me angry,” he said, “because at the end of the day, these two are bullies who think they can get their way by filing paper.”

Ah yes, bullies. Reminds me when I served on a grand jury. Assault case with two guys fighting. One had apparently already plead out and this one guy was sticking it out facing assault charge and inciting a riot. The ADA for the day brings in one cop to testify. Only evidence they produce is that the arresting officer testifies he and his partner were scared given the large crowd surrounding the fight, thus the second charge of "inciting a riot". We let the assault charge go through and tossed out the riot charge unanimously. IIRC, it was a bicycle patrol cop. Dude, you have a gun and a radio, how can you be scared of a crowd watching a fight?

Two days later the ADA who actually was running that case but couldn't be there the day we heard the case let out a snarky comment to a few of us about it. Long story short, the DA bully wasn't happy we'd taken away her bargaining chip to get the "perp" to plead out of court.

No real sympathy here for the beleaguered sheriff fighting his paper terrorists. His own kind started this war long ago.

Blogger Scott August 24, 2013 4:18 PM  

Is it positive or negative feedback?

Time will tell, but my money's (literally) on the negative. I dont see the sheriff giving up his cushy pension to throw in with the "turds".

Anonymous Mignon510 August 24, 2013 4:25 PM  

From the posted article: " In Gadsden, Ala., three people were arrested in July for filing liens against victims including the local district attorney and Treasury Secretary Jacob J. Lew."

The grammar is not clear, but I am assuming the victims are the district atty and the treasury sec. How the hell does one get arrested for filing a lien? The IRS files liens all the time. By God's Bones, we are far along the bad path.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 4:30 PM  

Time will tell, but my money's (literally) on the negative. I dont see the sheriff giving up his cushy pension to throw in with the "turds".

Wait until the state can no longer pay the pensions of the Police ...

Anonymous Mignon510 August 24, 2013 4:31 PM  

Oh. And how the hell are the district atty and the treasury sec. victims, when they are employees of the govt?

Anonymous YIH August 24, 2013 4:38 PM  

OT: teechurs is stoopid #163: High School Teacher Used Facebook to Solicit Sex From Students: Deputies.

Anonymous LL August 24, 2013 4:46 PM  

@a_peraspera

That article exactly delineates what I was saying on a previous post to Laughing Losers. The New Mexico law covered "goods" and "services" in addition to "facilities and accommodations" in the definition. So basically, what someone said after you posted that link, yes, you can be sued and have to pay attorney and court fees if you choose not to provide photography services to a gay couple. There was no licensing or anything of that nature, that I could see in the decision. A gay woman asked the Elane Photography LLC to do the pics for the gay couple, the company/photographer declined on religious reasons, the couple had the other partner ask for the same service but leaving out the fact that they were gay and the company was willing to do the ceremony.

And I agree, this is totally against free association. People in New Mexico should pay attention if they have religious reasons for turning down gay couples for any goods, services, facilities, or accommodations. You are violating the New Mexico Human Rights Act and your freedom of religion is NOT covered under New Mexico Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Anonymous a_peraspera August 24, 2013 5:18 PM  

Yeah, free association has been dead for 50 years. But this explicit denial of religious/conscience objections is fairly new.

My guess is, this was a test case to see how the courts and public would react - next target up is a church.

Blogger Jehu August 24, 2013 5:31 PM  

Naturally the establishment would conveniently forget to enforce the law were a Moslem group to ask a Jewish Bakery to bake a Mohammed celebration cake with selected verses about killing Jews depicted on it. Or if a Christian fundamentalist group were to ask for a 'Leviticus and Romans' cake baked by a Gay Bakery.
It is all who...whom, all the way down. This is why I ask that non-elite white people desacralize America and its systems in their minds.

Anonymous realmatt August 24, 2013 5:32 PM  

"Just doing my job by serving papers."
"I'm not in charge"
"I'm just following orders.."

People without culpability are not people at all, and shouldn't be surprised when they find themselves treated as though they are non-people. ie killed wholesale.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 24, 2013 5:42 PM  

"The only two things keeping me in check at this point in my life are God's law and fear of violent retribution from the government. I have zero respect or concern for U.S. law at any level. If it's in my interest to break U.S. law, if I can get away with it, and if I'm not violating God's law in doing so...I will do so."


@DT

I agree, and covered this ground in a post I made on my own blog on July 4th. I hope it meets with your approval:

http://antidem.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/on-this-day/

Anonymous Ben Saxon August 24, 2013 6:06 PM  

Talking about fraud here. It's all fraud. We are talking wholesale fraud.

It is as much Allstate defrauding my parents on their home owner policy for coverage they thought was there, that later and more recently is not. It is as much fraud Gamestop opening new games, in order to sell them used for whatever purposes they think they can get away with. As much fraud as $10 trillion of the assumed $16 trillion national debt, is pure fraud. The other $6 trillion the subject of inflation, which is another fraud all unto itself.

This is the bottom line folks. We have exhausted discussion on the problem. Beating a dead horse many times over. We need to be expending energies on solutions. Solutions short of a second (or third) bloody revolution.

Sitting in an ivory tower, in some distant land, waiting for the world to burn, literally wishing to immanetize the eschaton, is not the way to go. One may not think he is doing such, when in fact he is. It is too easy to do. When you can. You will. It is like my well-to-do brother, asking me why he spoils his children. I say, because -- you can.

People (adults) out there, who are practically at a point in their life, that have come to realize that they have less freedom (that is economic and social freedom) than the average teenager, living at home with their parents. They have lost their home, they have been forced to close their bank account, after some 20+ years with the same bank, and soon, they will loose their smartphone and data plan.

All because, despite at least one interview per week, they can't find decent work. They may be working retail for minimum wage. Some, even with inside referrals, still can't secure even that. Some with advanced IT skills, can't get that file clerk job, they once had 20+ years before. What work may be there, it is only temporary contract and probably part-time.

These people scratch their heads, doing their level best to inform others, with the very limited resources at their disposal. When others with far more resources and persuasion over a much larger audience, fail (their choice) to inform and more, promote someone, who is truly part of a solution, who is literally a resident of a locale within driving distance. Alex Jones will soon have to eat crow. A very large portion, and in public. Do you wish to join him?

Some here may say to themselves, "Gee, isn't this a bit harsh?" What would you rather have? Filing petitions and motions in court, requires money. Even without legal counsel. Money many don't have at their disposal. If they had such, they would rather invest that in training, to fill "skills gaps." Gaps, employers claim they can't hire because of such. (If in fact, employers are being truthful.)

Would you rather them rob banks and go postal? Many don't realize how close some are to that. Their Christian values and loving parents and families are what largely preventing such measures, at this present moment.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 24, 2013 6:24 PM  

An additional thought...

Nicole Foss of The Automatic Earth, in a recent interview with Jim Kunstler, remarked on how the (self-inflicted) loss of legitimacy on the part of government is going to have serious consequences. One is that we may soon find out just how much we took for granted the idea that people would obey the law just because they thought it was the right thing to do. That's what happens when a government has legitimacy - people abide by laws even when they disagree with them out of respect for the legitimacy that they perceive the government as having. Once that legitimacy erodes, people will obey the law - if they do - for the only other reason that people obey laws: out of fear.

This is exactly the transition that is underway now - from obedience to the law based on legitimacy to obedience based on fear. Thus the explosion of the government's enforcement organs.

The problem? Well, there are two. First is that the government will sooner rather than later run out of the massive amounts of money needed to keep these organs of enforcement going. But the second and more pressing problem is that you simply can't arrest everybody. For a while, they can (as they are now) get by making examples of a few unfortunates and hoping for everyone else to be cowed by the chilling effects of those cases.

But eventually that won't work anymore. At which point, one of two things will happen. One possibility is that the government will drop the mask of liberal democracy, and large-scale violent repressions will follow, followed by an armed response from the people. I know a lot of people think this very likely, and are preparing accordingly. But I consider it to be by far the less likely of the two scenarios on offer.

No, my friends, I think the likely scenario is the second, much more boring one. That is that we will slowly (almost imperceptibly on a day-to-day basis) "fall into chaos", as Vox puts it. The government, especially at the Federal level, will rage, rage against the dying of the light with shows of force that will reach a peak, then (eventually) taper off as they become less and less affordable. People will (gradually, over time) come to ignore laws that they don't like. Effective government and law enforcement, if any, will happen at the local level.

There's a best-case scenario and a worst-case scenario about how that will look. The best case is that it looks like Snow Crash. The worst case is that it looks like The Road Warrior. I expect it not to be a single universal outcome, but to vary widely depending on local conditions. Hell - Detroit, Gary, and Camden look like The Road Warrior even now.

That is, of course, if we don't have a military coup in response to increasing unrest. That's always that possibility, too...

Anonymous zen0 August 24, 2013 7:31 PM  

tz reports:

MERS is a virtual world with its own currency, rules, and structure,

Bitcoin for bankers?

Anonymous Anonymous August 24, 2013 7:34 PM  

I was in the patriot movement pay no income taxes part of it before OK bombing. I was invited to join a group that did this. They set up there own court in CA which from what I understand being the wild west was legal. They would sue the electric co or whatever etc for say 10 million and subpoena them to come to there court. Well they ignored it, so were found guilty. Then they would take the judgement to the county clerk with official looking paper and they would stamp it. Then they would go to the bank with this lean and get loans. They went to jail but for a time it
worked.

Anonymous The other skeptic August 24, 2013 8:24 PM  

That is, of course, if we don't have a military coup in response to increasing unrest. That's always that possibility, too...

Is a military coup even possible in the US?

Blogger James Dixon August 24, 2013 8:32 PM  

> They are officers of the Court and this is what they do. I

You know, Susan, the last time I looked no on forced that job on them. Maybe people should think long and hard before becoming "officers of the Court" when the court has become corrupt.

> ...have you seen the case in New Mexico where a wedding photographer declined to work a gay wedding and was handed a court judgement of $6600?

So from now on, take the job, fail to show up, and give the people their money back when they complain. After a 90 day review process by your "corporate ombudsman, of course. You can write up the cancellation policy and review policy in your contract.

> We need to be expending energies on solutions. Solutions short of a second (or third) bloody revolution.

Solutions short of that will not work. They've all been tried.

Blogger James Dixon August 24, 2013 8:33 PM  

> Is a military coup even possible in the US?

Probably not at the moment. Give us another 30 years or so.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein August 24, 2013 8:52 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein August 24, 2013 8:57 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein August 24, 2013 8:59 PM  

Probably not at the moment. Give us another 30 years or so.

Possibly... but when everything goes to hell...it seems to happen almost overnight. It could happen in 6 months (really!) or never. While 30 years, to me, seems optimistic -- in 1917, I would have never given the USSR more than 10 or 15 years.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 24, 2013 10:20 PM  

Is a military coup even possible in the US?

From the Berlin Wall coming down, to 9/11, to America losing in Iraq, to the legalization of gay "marriage", to an upstart tech billionaire buying a bankrupt Washington Post, to the revelation that the NSA was getting away with spying on the calls and emails of the whole country in bald violation of the 4th Amendment, I've spent my entire adult life watching "impossible" things happen in front of me.

My reaction now is that if Newton or Einstein didn't say that something's impossible, then it's possible.

Blogger Ann Morgan August 24, 2013 10:26 PM  

Regarding losing respect for the law: That seems to happen to a lot of authorities when they shift from making rules on what is right, to instead either making rules to increase their power, or making rules on subjects which they really know absolutely nothing about, in order to seem more knowledgeable than they actually are.

The current Obaminstration is doing it right now regarding 'climate change', which they either know absolutely nothing about or are flat out lying about. The latter actually seeming more likely since they are deliberately omitting the effects of volcanoes and the sun, both of which we most emphatically DO know about, from all their studies.

Blogger Ann Morgan August 24, 2013 10:27 PM  

Regarding losing respect for the law: That seems to happen to a lot of authorities when they shift from making rules on what is right, to instead either making rules to increase their power, or making rules on subjects which they really know absolutely nothing about, in order to seem more knowledgeable than they actually are.

The current Obaminstration is doing it right now regarding 'climate change', which they either know absolutely nothing about or are flat out lying about. The latter actually seeming more likely since they are deliberately omitting the effects of volcanoes and the sun, both of which we most emphatically DO know about, from all their studies.

Blogger Jeff August 24, 2013 11:02 PM  

If I were forced to photograph, the end result would be a bunch of mighty blurry jpegs.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein August 24, 2013 11:05 PM  

NEVER OT @ Vox Popoli!!!

Certain horned Minnesotans should perhaps ponder this.

Or not.

*Did this post get deleted?*

Anonymous Michael Maier August 24, 2013 11:08 PM  

I cannot believe I went from thinking "Rush Limbaugh is a Commie pussy" to believing the entire country is a lie from day one and that I don't think I'd lift a finger to save the life of a pig of any sort.

And I WORK for the feds!

I blame Vox' Mohawk. Were it not for that WND pic, I might have never found this place and realized the truth of "our" system.

Blogger Brad Andrews August 24, 2013 11:20 PM  

Myrddon,

The prophet Daniel thought corporate responsibility was fine, as he took responsibility for the sins of all the Jewish people in his prayers. I guess he was left wing.

Blogger Brad Andrews August 24, 2013 11:37 PM  

I guess it would be a case of crying NAAALT.

Anonymous Myrddin August 25, 2013 12:26 AM  

Andrews,

A hit, sir, a palpable hit. But I am not done yet:

So, since presumably some Jews are not saved, Daniel is in Hell?
Or Paul, who begged to do the same thing?


But you are right. Corporate responsibility is a fundamental reality. We are all culpable for Adam's sin.

That was what the Cross addressed.

As a political concept, though, it's no good. It condemns everyone. Should I be lifted up on the shoulders of my Saxon ancestors whose culture brought about Alfred the Great, or castigated for their ancestors, the slavering barbarians barely held at bay by King Arthur's sword? Should I be grouped by skin tone with slavers, or by country of origin with abolitionists? To all but God, the lines are completely subjective.

And since God hasn't told us to enact His Judgement by nuking the world, presumably we should discover a method of determining culpability that affects some and not others -- say, for instance, judging each person on his own actions -- and leave the less concrete nuances to God, who is more able to navigate them.

Anonymous DonReynolds August 25, 2013 1:00 AM  

> Is a military coup even possible in the US?

James Dixon...."Probably not at the moment. Give us another 30 years or so."

James, I cannot begin to believe that this country can continue along the same path for thirty more years. That is not to say there will be a military coup. (That is pretty close to impossible.) No matter whether another 50 million foreign citizens come here or not, we cannot do another thirty years of this.

Anonymous DonReynolds August 25, 2013 1:23 AM  

Anti-Democracy Activist..."There's a best-case scenario and a worst-case scenario about how that will look. The best case is that it looks like Snow Crash. The worst case is that it looks like The Road Warrior. I expect it not to be a single universal outcome, but to vary widely depending on local conditions. Hell - Detroit, Gary, and Camden look like The Road Warrior even now."

I cannot imagine this having a best case outcome and I am very sure that Mad Max is not the worst that can happen. It could get much worse. But I agree with you that the impacts will vary widely by locale. Many of the rural areas will simply be "inconvenienced" and some of the urban areas will simply be empty of people.

Anonymous Jack Amok August 25, 2013 2:31 AM  

What Bob Dylan failed to understand is that all of the ways out of here involve sacrifice. Those being sacrificed won't like it.

Well, none of us have been through that, and who the hell knows what is our fate. But the hour, yes it sure is getting late.

At some point, somebody has to give up something they want, since the bottom line of the ponzi scheme our government has been running (both in terms of money and power) is that way, way, way more than is available has been promised. Soembody is going to get shorted. Maybe everybody.

Anonymous Eric Ashley August 25, 2013 3:16 AM  

"And who are you, old man?" The young fellow by the campfire spoke for his brethren, and his shotgun, slightly raised spoke for him. Nowadays, no one used rifles as that was too complicated to build unless you were one of the old Makers.

The old man's hair was white, and curled in waves across a strong face, and he laughed from the edge of the shadow, amidst the uncleared bush of what used to be Denver.

"I'm yer father, boy."
"You niver was, and soon..."
"I made this world of yours by destroying the old one."
The restive and violence seeking young men sat back, ready to be entertained by either fight or story, either came easy to them. And they came for a story of nukes unleashed.

"I led the robbery that took down the Bank of England. Stole all their gold."
"So? I mean cool and all mister, but no bank robbery..."
"After we stole their gold, they had to audit and well, the lies came out, as I planned."
Blank looks all around until the youngest spoke.
"Uh, what's audit?"
The man laughed and sat down at the fire.
"Listen. It began on a November day in the Year of Our Lord 2014....




Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 25, 2013 3:46 AM  

The argument in favor of the possibility of a military coup is that the military is the only part of the government - and the only extant organization capable of governing - that has both wide trust and approval among the people and is also widely seen as being competent enough to run the country (whether these are justified sentiments are beside the point). To quote myself (sorry - it's gauche, I know) from a recent posting on my own humble web space:

"Noted in stories, columns, and blogs related to the recent events in Egypt – in comments sections, in the dark and obscure corners of the internet, on the fringes (But how much that we face in modern life was at the fringes not so very long ago?) there have been a great many remarks made along the lines of: “If only our military had the guts to do what Egypt’s just did!”.

I’ve long said that any country that worships its military as much as America does is almost certain to end up ruled by it. Perhaps with some pretenses and external trappings of democracy (Note that even Augustus didn’t dare to formally disband the Roman Senate; he simply made it an irrelevant rubber stamp), but with the military as the real power.

I am a monarchist, and not by nature an advocate of military dictatorship (though certainly it is far better than democracy), so I am of mixed feelings about all of this. Make no mistake, however, this sentiment is moving off the fringes – more quickly than most would believe."


Look around some of the parts of the internet where you might not normally go, and you'll see that this is true. Find the right way to frame it ("Who do you trust - Our Troops, or those damn Washington politicians?"), and make things bad enough (we're getting there), and the masses will probably go for it. In fact, Plato would probably say it's virtually inevitable.

Is it "pretty close to impossible"? Yeah, well - so was Caesar crossing the Rubicon, and yet that happened. And while I can think of better outcomes, I can think of worse ones, too.

(I personally am still betting on the slow disintegration theory, however.)

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist August 25, 2013 3:48 AM  

"whether these are justified sentiments are beside the point"

Yikes! Welcome to the 3:45AM version of subject-verb agreement...

Blogger Jack Hanson August 25, 2013 4:25 AM  

Are people really defending "sovereign citizens" because they stick a thumb in someone's eye in between insisting that all trials are 'naval trials' because the US flag has gilt fringe? That and insisting because their names are capitalized in court documents they're not the person named?

Yeah, you're filing liens on a small country sheriff. If you think you're really raging against the machine you're fucking delusional. Shit like the NMSC ruling that multiculturalism is the price of citizenship is doing more to turn people against the system than any amount of legal sperg outs will.

Blogger James Dixon August 25, 2013 10:00 AM  

> No matter whether another 50 million foreign citizens come here or not, we cannot do another thirty years of this.

Oh, I agree. I was making a guess as to how long it would take the culture in the military to change to permit a coup. And that's the rough figure which came to me.

I don't expect things to continue as they are long enough for that to happen.

> Yeah, you're filing liens on a small country sheriff.

The sheriff is the one who serves the eviction notices in the county. Or did you miss the section "by a couple who had lost their home to foreclosure in 2009"?

Blogger LP 999/Eliza August 25, 2013 11:56 AM  

Dear Countrywide, you MF's stole my house in 2007 and I have not forgotten.

Blogger LP 999/Eliza August 25, 2013 12:00 PM  

Flashback to 2007;

The sheriff's dept., as a whole do not care, they must answer to the property tax machine. A few might care but its doubtful.

The dep who served me cared (or something). He showed me a 2 inch stack of docs he had to serve today. He said that he "was hired to protect and serve the people of his community. As a Christian, he wanted to serve and protect but throwing good people out of their homes over questionable documents was not his job or in his liking."

Blogger Jack Hanson August 25, 2013 1:14 PM  

How did they lose it by foreclosure? ARM readjustment? Cash out refi that went bad? Did they buy a house they couldn't afford? If the names involved were Rashanda and Shitvarious or Juan and Ofelia I doubt there would be this level of emotional chest beating around here about "evil kkkkops". The fact is the foreclosure could have been their own damn fault and because of their inane SC logic they lost the house.

Don't get me wrong, the mortgage & banking system in this country is fucked. However if you don't want to swim with the sharks no one owes you a home. Acting like a giant child is the flip side of a leftist temper tantrum because someone told a faggot they weren't interested in taking their photo.

Blogger Jack Hanson August 25, 2013 1:15 PM  

How did they lose it by foreclosure? ARM readjustment? Cash out refi that went bad? Did they buy a house they couldn't afford? If the names involved were Rashanda and Shitvarious or Juan and Ofelia I doubt there would be this level of emotional chest beating around here about "evil kkkkops". The fact is the foreclosure could have been their own damn fault and because of their inane SC logic they lost the house.

Don't get me wrong, the mortgage & banking system in this country is fucked. However if you don't want to swim with the sharks no one owes you a home. Acting like a giant child is the flip side of a leftist temper tantrum because someone told a faggot they weren't interested in taking their photo.

Blogger James Dixon August 25, 2013 3:30 PM  

> He said that...

But I notice he was still doing his job and hadn't turned in his badge yet.

> How did they lose it by foreclosure?

I have no idea. Nor does it really matter.

Blogger Jack Hanson August 25, 2013 4:04 PM  

How does it "not matter" other than 'because I said so'? If you're not paying your mortgage I'm all ears for whatever argument you want to come up with for why someone shouldn't lose their house.

Blogger James Dixon August 25, 2013 6:36 PM  

> How does it "not matter" other than 'because I said so'?

Well, it may matter to you. It doesn't to me.

> If you're not paying your mortgage...

Now you're the one making assumptions. How do you know they weren't?

Blogger Jack Hanson August 26, 2013 12:32 AM  

Nah, not going to argue with your sophistry if you don't agree that paying your mortgage that you owe is something responsible people do.

Blogger James Dixon August 26, 2013 5:49 AM  

> ...if you don't agree that paying your mortgage that you owe is something responsible people do.

It wasn't an idle question. There was a case a few years ago where a couple was foreclosed on event though they were current with their payments. The bank had apparently sold their mortgage and not informed them of the change, then kept taking their payments.

Blogger Jack Hanson August 26, 2013 8:37 AM  

Yeah im familiar with the horror stories too which is why I said that the system is fucked right now. However I'm not going to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone who thinks filing 200b or so of false liens is the best way to go about things. If you're familiar with the horror stories you should also be familiar with the more successful ways people have fought back.

People are welcome to thump their chest and go all in on fuck da police but that doesn't change the fact that sovereign citizens are bugfuck insane, much like all the hand wringing here about the police shooting a snarling rottweiler didn't change the fact that the owner got the confrontation he sought to provoke like a giant man child.

Anonymous DrTorch August 26, 2013 9:22 AM  

Paper terrorism? Same thing gov't has been doing for decades. But yes, I would call that activity terrorism.

Blogger Unknown August 26, 2013 1:12 PM  

"Yeah, you're filing liens on a small country sheriff", says Jack Hanson. For the record, the guy is the Sheriff of Hennepin County, Minnesota, which includes Minneapolis and some suburbs. 'Tain't small and 'tain't country.

It's fun to see government officials struggling to escape the tentacles of their own bureaucracy.

Blogger Jack Hanson August 26, 2013 5:36 PM  

No, Hennepin is not small. On the other hand, filing liens like that is only 'fun' if you're a passive aggressive child. They've lost with consequences so they could aggrevate someone for a short amount of time. That's the kind of cost benefit analysis you usually see with more diverse types.

Blogger Jack Hanson August 26, 2013 5:37 PM  

No, Hennepin is not small. On the other hand, filing liens like that is only 'fun' if you're a passive aggressive child. They've lost with consequences so they could aggrevate someone for a short amount of time. That's the kind of cost benefit analysis you usually see with more diverse types.

Blogger James Dixon August 27, 2013 1:41 PM  

> However I'm not going to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone who thinks filing 200b or so of false liens is the best way to go about things.

Since the bank false liens total far more than that, and you seem to be extending them the benefit of a doubt...

> That's the kind of cost benefit analysis you usually see with more diverse types.

Or otherwise more reasonable people when they really have "nothing left to lose". Though at least at this point they're still using the legal system. When they give up on that it gets even messier very quickly.

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