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Thursday, April 03, 2014

Spelling it out

This is for the benefit of all the logical slowpokes. It is logic so basic that even those who are intellectually limited to the rhetorical level should be able to follow it:
  • If you have the right to demand that I bake you a cake, then I have the right to force you to attend church, mosque, or synagogue.
  • If you have the right to fire me because you don't like my political position on the legality of homogamy, I have the right to fire you because I don't like your political position on the legality of homosexuality.
  • If you have the right to deny me access to the news media because I don't believe in climate change, I have the right to deny you access to the media because you don't believe in God.
If atheists truly want a power struggle for the right to be intolerant, Christians will eventually engage and win. Because we will die before we will give up our beliefs and you will not. We invented the Crusade and the Inquisition, two institutions so historically intimidating that atheists still shiver and tell each other scary stories about them centuries after the event.

We will revive them before we will abandon our faith. And while we would prefer to live with both Christian and traditional Constitutional values, if we are forced to choose between the two, we will choose the former without even thinking twice.

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462 Comments:

1 – 200 of 462 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Jeff April 03, 2014 4:05 PM  

Remember, Atheists invented gulags...

Blogger SirHamster April 03, 2014 4:06 PM  

Somewhat related, Eich has stepped down as CEO of Mozilla.

Link.


So if you've donated to a political cause in the past, that shall be used against you.

I shall have to add a life goal to run my own business just so I can fire Democrats.

Anonymous Alexander April 03, 2014 4:07 PM  

Hear, hear!

We also have the advantage of institutional memory on our side. Sure, we have allowed this to slip. But any Christian in the fight knows that, no matter how bad things may be or may get, a Christian has endured worse before and - while he may not have survived the ordeal - did not abandon the struggle.

Atheists and their fellow secular travelers, on the other hand, can't go to a convention hall to talk about Buffy or Star Trek without a certified safe space.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 4:08 PM  

Dear atheists,

Remember, y'all started this.

We're just going to finish it.

Anonymous Incurvatus April 03, 2014 4:09 PM  

It'll make them wish for the good ol' days in the closet, back at the fringes of society instead of the drag show, "Piss-Christ" limelight. Consider Vox's few paragraphs above as fair warning as to our proximity to the edge of toleration.

Blogger Rabbi B April 03, 2014 4:09 PM  

'We invented the Crusade and the Inquisition ... we will revive them ...'

Are you willing to clarify the above statement? I want to understand your perspective on these historically intimidating institutions. Thanks.

Anonymous Dr. J April 03, 2014 4:11 PM  

Initially somewhat a skeptic, I am now officially on board with the less kind, more militant Vox.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:13 PM  

Strategically, I still think it's best for the majority of us to keep our heads down, and not shout our intentions from the rooftops.

Anonymous Alexander April 03, 2014 4:16 PM  

Probably. On the other hand, expressly stating one's intentions and opinions on a given matter are not any guarantee that they will be taken seriously.

Anonymous The Bruce April 03, 2014 4:16 PM  

And while we would prefer to live with both Christian and traditional Constitutional values, if we are forced to choose between the two, we will choose the former without even thinking twice.

Who’s we? I’m assuming not “churchians”? What percentage of people who self-identify as Christian are “Real” and what percentage are “churchian”?

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 4:18 PM  

How did the Crusades "work"? The Near/Middle East and the Holy Land are in Muslim hands, the blowback from the Crusades was in part the rise of Ottoman Turks, and Christians have been almost driven out of the areas. The Crusaders even sacked Constantinople, which was a bulwark against the expansion of Islam.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:18 PM  

Probably. On the other hand, expressly stating one's intentions and opinions on a given matter are not any guarantee that they will be taken seriously.

Not at that moment, no. But when they realise they should have, then you have left a track record.

For someone with an audience the size of Vox's, that's a price worth paying. But I have a suspicion that it isn't prudent for most of us.

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 4:20 PM  

Mozilla believes both in equality and freedom of speech. Equality is necessary for meaningful speech. And you need free speech to fight for equality. Figuring out how to stand for both at the same time can be hard.

Just watch out who you donate to or you'll be canned by Mozilla. What hypocrisy.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 4:22 PM  

Um, JartStar, Vox never said the crusades worked. He just said that the mere thought terrifies atheists.

Blogger Subversive Saint April 03, 2014 4:22 PM  

Interesting is it not? White Christians take forever to push over the edge, but once they are the repercussions are historical in scope.

Anonymous Huckleberry - est. 1977 April 03, 2014 4:23 PM  

I am now officially on board with the less kind, more militant Vox

Was there a more kind version?
Not in the time I've been reading this blog, ~2004.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:23 PM  

It occurs to me that the biggest challenge for us will be to radicalize the fence-sitters. Which makes me think that we should already be archiving all these instances, and weaponizing them into what will be called propaganda.

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 4:23 PM  

the mere thought terrifies atheists

They point to it enough, and squee.

Blogger lordabacus April 03, 2014 4:24 PM  

Basic logic indeed, thus the position of many committed and consistent libertarians who would deny that anyone has the right to perform any of the actions listed above.

As for the Inquisition, "intimidating" or "not all that bad"?
"One-half as deadly on an annual basis as children's bicycles in the United States" -- VD, on the Spanish Inquisition. No one expects the -- Oh Bugger!

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:26 PM  

One-half as deadly on an annual basis as children's bicycles in the United States

There are two ways to interpret this fact. The one is what you are thinking.

The other is, why ARE the targets similar to children's bicycle deaths in number?

Anonymous LES April 03, 2014 4:28 PM  

Rod Dreher's blog:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/brendan-eich-gay-rights-mccarthyism/

Anonymous DrTorch April 03, 2014 4:30 PM  

Who’s we? I’m assuming not “churchians”? What percentage of people who self-identify as Christian are “Real” and what percentage are “churchian”?

This. In the US "evangelical" and "conservative" churches have been letting things slide for 100 years easily, 160 years on some issues. I think many (most?) leaders and members are actually happy to see injustice and apostasy.

Anonymous Alexander April 03, 2014 4:30 PM  

Markku,

I've thought about this, and the Fed has made it very easy for me.

Sure, I don't use my full name here, so I'm inoculated to some degree from low-level issues. But between the NSA et al... if they want to dig dirt on a little fish like me, it's waaaaay to late for me to worry about it.

But there's a benefit here: a paper trail also gives me proof of being a genuine member of the group when our side actually starts policing its institutions. Before, that benefit had to be weighed against the cost of exposure to the enemy - no longer.

Blogger lordabacus April 03, 2014 4:32 PM  

"The other is, why ARE the targets similar to children's bicycle deaths in number?"

They AREN'T. Death sentences represent approx. 1% of "targets," i.e. those tried for heresy.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 4:32 PM  

All you people whining about.Churchians, yes they're a problem, but persecution always makes the church stronger.

I have every reason to believe that something Tookish will rise up in many a churchian.

Blogger James Dixon April 03, 2014 4:32 PM  

> I shall have to add a life goal to run my own business just so I can fire Democrats.

And political affiliation is not a federally protected class, so it most areas it's perfectly legal.

Anonymous Jimmy April 03, 2014 4:33 PM  

lordabacus - he said "historically intimidating" implying the spectre is far more effective than were the events themselves.

Anonymous Daniel April 03, 2014 4:37 PM  

How did the Crusades "work"?

Reversal of the Moorish invasion.
Crusader state income.
Engineering improvements to the castle.
Better paper.
Coffee.
The end of roman numerals.
Banking...oh well. Any good crusade is going to have its unintended consequences. Maybe the next one will accidentally get rid of the banks!

Nobody cares who is keeping Jerusalem at the moment. The area was called Palestine by the Romans for a reason.

Blogger traderdoc April 03, 2014 4:39 PM  

Now seriously. This stuff is seriously really funny. It is not serious. This is classically great Vox comedy.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey April 03, 2014 4:39 PM  

Hellz yeah!

Blogger Res Ipsa April 03, 2014 4:40 PM  

A democratic republic only works when the people demonstrate moral restraint. Christians in the US have traditionally had a live and let live attitude. No doubt we would keep drifting along and keep our collective noses out of other peoples bedrooms, which is what we were doing. There is a point past which people will not be pushed. The smart thing is to stop pushing.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:42 PM  

Absolutely. All in good fun. Nothing to see here.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 4:43 PM  

Hmm...not certain how to think about this. I have no desire to purge anyone. The problem comes if others refuse to refrain from purging me and mine. The difficulty with purges is that once they start it is hard to say where they will end. Robespierre ended up dead from one of his own guillotines and the Stalinists were proof that while today your views may be considered sufficiently "orthodox", tomorrow may not hold any such guarantees. (That both regimes in questions were atheist is a bit humorous considering their(atheists) own purported view as champions of rationality against the mouth breathing Christians.)

Still, considering how purges devolve, I would like to know what Vox thinks of the idea of religiously motivated purges as someone whose own views (at least if I have understood him and I would not dream of speaking for him, especially if I have not) are not entirely the same as the majority of Christians in regards to the Trinity.

After all, the heterodox Calvin (from the Roman Catholic perspective) showed few qualms about having the heterodox (from Calvin's perspective) Michael Servetus burnt at the stake. And as was mentioned above, the Roman Catholic Crusaders seemed more than happy to wipeout many an Orthodox brother on their way to slaughtering Saracens. Or the Albigensians, who, for all intents and purposes, were living quiet ascetic lives. (Though it appears it was one of them or a intellectual fellow-traveller who started the blood letting.) In any case, once started, there was blood enough to sate those that wanted it.

Blogger RobertT April 03, 2014 4:43 PM  

If you're afraid of being held accountable for what you say or do, you probably shouldn't say it or do it. If you think putting up a false name will protect you from being tracked down, it won't.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 4:44 PM  

The first crusade and sixth crusades were successful

Anonymous dh April 03, 2014 4:45 PM  

Atheists and their fellow secular travelers, on the other hand, can't go to a convention hall to talk about Buffy or Star Trek without a certified safe space.

This must be true. In the last three years started training and sparring a very little (after some bad health issues I was able to start training a little bit, and I had never fought). I think that most Americans must go through life and never be physically violated in any sense of the word - never punched, never really slapped, never kicked, never knocked down. Maybe a car accident? And even with that immense physical safety, you get cases of PTSD.

People who come from the other places in the world, with a real amount of crime, war crimes even, with violence, with depravity, well we have a different take on this. When I read about feminists going to fits of anger and rage and having trouble breathing and feeling like the world is collapsing and etc etc, it sort of makes me chuckle. These are the "militant feminists" we hear about. Militant is a joke to them. A style. When/if the country fractures, they'll see what militant really means. It means you are a guerrilla, with a weapon, fighting to kill the other-side off before they kill you off. I've never been in a proper military, but I've been in a militia. There were strong men, strong boys, a few women. The women were protected by the traditional society, which means they were not raped publicly, they were mostly there to cook. The ones who were mothers were usually not violated. In the coming meltdown, if it happens, the women will be protected by what? Their pixie haircut, their six cats, and their anti-gun bumper sticker?

No, the truth is, if the worst happens, the men and survivors won't even have to waste the bullets to execute feminists and activists first. Because they'll not make a few days to begin with. The only safe space will be the back of their mind, while they are gang raped and then killed quickly and without fanfare.

Blogger njartist April 03, 2014 4:46 PM  

Even more basically: Equal weights for equal measures.

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 4:46 PM  

Josh, I suppose I couldn't fathom someone fearing something which was arguably a long term failure.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:47 PM  

After all, the heterodox Calvin (from the Roman Catholic perspective) showed few qualms about having the heterodox (from Calvin's perspective) Michael Servetus burnt at the stake.

Yes he did. He kept petitioning them to grant him a painless death, and was refused. But to my knowledge, he showed few qualms about the death sentence in general.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 4:47 PM  

"If you have the right to demand that I bake you a cake, then I have the right to force you to attend church, mosque, or synagogue."

What? Couldn't you just refuse to bake it? I don't these two rights are equal.

Aside from that, Christians as a population are declining every year. Especially in the Western First-World nations. Atheism, agnosticism, and secularism on the rise.

The evidence is against you here. A lot of Christians simply chalk it up to the end times. Of course, you're not a lot of Christians. You're brand doesn't have all that love and tolerance like a lot of Christians.

One source of many: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2012/0815/Atheism-on-the-rise-around-the-globe

Anonymous damntull April 03, 2014 4:48 PM  

The Crusades were largely successful at halting or delaying Mohammedan expansion into Europe.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:50 PM  

If you're afraid of being held accountable for what you say or do, you probably shouldn't say it or do it.

It's not that, it's that saying it too early may result in you not being able to do it.

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 4:50 PM  

You're brand doesn't have all that love and tolerance like a lot of Christians

You mean churchians. You're quite confused.

Anonymous Mr. Nightstick April 03, 2014 4:51 PM  

The Crusades was also a success when you account for all the tech and wealth we stole.

Anonymous Alexander April 03, 2014 4:52 PM  

No, Christian numbers are on the rise. Dangerously for you, it's especially on the rise in places that make no lip service whatsoever to tolerance, multiculturalism, or liberalism.

And you know damn well that you can't refuse to bake that cake. Not without losing everything. So unless your idea of a democratic society is a Christian having to choose between financial ruin on principle and running a bakery, you can piss off.

Anonymous Stephen J. April 03, 2014 4:53 PM  

"Yes he did. He kept petitioning them to grant him a painless death, and was refused. But to my knowledge, he showed few qualms about the death sentence in general."

In fairness, almost nobody in the world at the time did.

Anonymous patrick kelly April 03, 2014 4:53 PM  

Shhh........ don't talk about fight club......

Anonymous jack April 03, 2014 4:53 PM  

@Markku: Strategically, I still think it's best for the majority of us to keep our heads down
Tactically, you can do the above and still do a bunch of nasty stuff. In the passive mode: seek any and all dirt on your opponents. In the case of who and what we are talking about, there should be plenty of that. You don't have to id yourself, just release it. Stand around looking mean, but unarmed, at the most popular progressive polling places. Record exactly who and what comes to these polling places on election day. If the cops try to run you off video tape them [or have someone unsuspected do that for you. With audio]. Etc, etc.
Imagination people, imagination. And, energy. And, commitment.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 4:53 PM  

In fairness, almost nobody in the world at the time did.

Correct.

Anonymous Alexander April 03, 2014 4:54 PM  

In fairness, almost nobody in the world at *this* time does, either.

It's usually just a question of 'who' and 'why'. The same guy protesting against the chair for thuglife will be back the next day demanding all climate change deniers be executed.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 4:56 PM  

You can't unbake that cake...

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 4:56 PM  

Daniel,

You forgot pederasty. Some Crusaders learned and brought back that as well.

Of course "Truth's" numbers are outdated. Study: World Is Turning More Religious; Atheism Declining

"If this trend continues, agnostics and atheists will be a smaller portion of the world's population in 2020 than they were in 2010," says the report."

Anonymous jack April 03, 2014 4:58 PM  

@ damntull
Charles Martel had a lot to do with stopping muslim expansion into europe. And, the spanish monarchs in the 15th. century.

Anonymous The Bruce April 03, 2014 5:01 PM  

You mean churchians.

I think we still need to determine if those who will die before [they] will give up [their] beliefs, those who will revive the crusade and the inquisition and would choose Christian values over the Constitution actually represent a majority…

If not, then it’s not a foregone conclusion that they will eventually engage and win, even with Vox’s call to arms and Josh’s girlish excitement.

Anonymous dh April 03, 2014 5:01 PM  

If you have the right to demand that I bake you a cake, then I have the right to force you to attend church, mosque, or synagogue.

I think the problem here is that when this happened, in the 1960's, there as no fight. The Christian people are almost responsible for it to begin with.

Anonymous patrick kelly April 03, 2014 5:03 PM  

Shhhh....... don't talk about fight club.....

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 03, 2014 5:03 PM  

Who’s we? I’m assuming not “churchians”? What percentage of people who self-identify as Christian are “Real” and what percentage are “churchian”?

According to the Barna Group, about 66% of Americans are what he calls "Casual Christians". They go to church, but that's the extent of their faith.

Roughly 16% of Americans are what he calls "Captive Christians". They believe that the Bible is the Word of God and take their faith seriously.

In truth, God has worked with much, much less.

Blogger Chris Gerrib April 03, 2014 5:04 PM  

If you have the right to demand that I bake you a cake, then I have the right to force you to attend church, mosque, or synagogue.

No, if you decide to sell cakes to the general public, I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash.

If you have the right to fire me because you don't like my political position on the legality of homogamy, I have the right to fire you because I don't like your political position on the legality of homosexuality.

Who's demanding the right to fire anybody because of their beliefs? The demand is that if you accept employment to bake cakes, you bake them for everybody.

If you have the right to deny me access to the news media because I don't believe in climate change, I have the right to deny you access to the media because you don't believe in God.

Nobody has the right to access the news media. Everybody has the right to suggest to the news media that they cover or not cover certain events / people / ideas.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:05 PM  

In truth, God has worked with much, much less.

Yep. A revival often starts with a tiny group, or even one man.

Anonymous Jimmy April 03, 2014 5:05 PM  

Truth: "What? Couldn't you just refuse to bake it? I don't these two rights are equal."

Probably because you're not conscious of the specific story to which Vox is referring. A Christian baker refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. The court told them they had to. What Vox is clearly saying is that if you can infringe on my religious liberty by forcing me to bake you a cake, I can infringe on your religious liberty by forcing you to attend service. It's an illustration of the absurdities involved if the game were fair. But it's not, which is why eventually Christians won't put up with it anymore and resort to other measures.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 03, 2014 5:05 PM  

Keep in mind that it is a historical fact that atheists have killed more people than Christians in the last 2000 years. And atheism was really codified into a ideology until two centuries ago or so.

Blogger neal April 03, 2014 5:05 PM  

Have you killed? Have you lost, and been raised from the dead? Have you ever not wanted to obey a High Order, because humans do not fare so well during, or after? Blood Cults are very logical, and mechanical. If you are and were there, then that would get buried pretty damned deep.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 5:05 PM  

"You mean churchians. You're quite confused."

Oh, I didn't realize that you (or any human) got to decide who is a real Christian and who is not. I thought it was those who repent and accept Jesus that got into heaven. Don't recall anything about discriminating against gays, women, and blacks. Or aligning with some extreme political position. Must have missed that chapter.

OpenID cailcorishev April 03, 2014 5:06 PM  

Christians in the US have traditionally had a live and let live attitude. No doubt we would keep drifting along and keep our collective noses out of other peoples bedrooms, which is what we were doing.

I'm struck by how many people I'm seeing recently saying the same thing: "I used to be for gay marriage because it seemed fair and wouldn't affect me anyway, but now I see that letting them marry isn't enough; they won't be satisfied until I'm forced to dance at their weddings." Brendan Eich couldn't get away with just taking it back; they actually told him he had to make an unqualified statement in favor of homogamy just to keep his job. Zero tolerance.

They're feeling their oats and are pushing way too fast. They should have just kept simmering the frog, and let people cave in slowly like they did with homosexuality in the first place. Shoving it down our throats with judges and then immediately following that up by demanding that everyone sign a loyalty oath to the homosexualist agenda is just a really bad idea.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:06 PM  

Who's demanding the right to fire anybody because of their beliefs? The demand is that if you accept employment to bake cakes, you bake them for everybody.

They DID bake them for everybody. They had served many homosexual customers. But they didn't bake them for all OCCASIONS.

Anonymous Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 03, 2014 5:06 PM  

This isn't just atheist vs. religious, it's statist vs libertarian.

"Any power you arrogate upon yourselves to compel others to do something you like, will eventually be used against you by others to do something you don't like."

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 5:07 PM  

Truth, I am afraid, believes his own propaganda.

Atheism has been continually on the rise but when its bitter fruits are tried, it inevitably collapses. Unfortunately, it usually ends in bloodshed. The Soviets (as "atheist" a nation as ever there was) showed that faith in God cannot be gotten rid of.

The view of the "enlightened" in our own age, seems to be that with time the glories of Science will lead the rest of us benighted souls into the illuminated uplands of Progress.

The problem is that whenever they have gotten a sufficient group of people to banish worship of God, the gods of the copybook headings always come back to remind them that "the wages of Sin is death."

They can argue that it isn't a vengeful god that causes problems but natural consequences. But in either case, the natural consequences of denying God and refusing to live according to every word the proceeds from His mouth, is that as humans we inevitably try to have our cake and eat it too.

But it can't be done. God's commandments are there to protect men from themselves.

Anonymous Jimmy April 03, 2014 5:07 PM  

"No, if you decide to sell cakes to the general public, I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash."

No, no, no, and no. This is some weird liberal collectivist logic that no conservative (of any stripe) subscribes to. Your property is your property until you choose to part with it on your terms.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 5:08 PM  

I will agree, the baker should not have been forced to bake a cake. And I'm not sure why the same-sex couple would want a cake from that baker.

I will also say, the baker is an asshole. But it's not illegal to be an asshole.

Anonymous the bandit April 03, 2014 5:08 PM  

No, if you decide to sell cakes to the general public, I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash.

Unless, of course, the person with cash is a white supremacist and wants his son Hilter's name on the cake.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:08 PM  

I thank God for that baker, because it is one of the best rallying crys we have.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 5:09 PM  

I think it's verified that I'm pretty liberal. But I've always believed that a place of business should have the right to refuse service to a customer.

I also believe they should be boycotted, picketed, harassed in every legal way possible, but legally forced.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 5:11 PM  

Girlish excitement?

I don't quite see how you drew that conclusion.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 5:13 PM  

"Keep in mind that it is a historical fact that atheists have killed more people than Christians in the last 2000 years"

It's not even possible to show this as a historical fact. Death tolls are rarely even agreed upon. Take the holocaust for instance. Some will say 2 million, some 6. I'm sure there's other discrepancies. And Christians are only one religion. If we're to take religious vs. non-religious killings? I'd have a hard time believing that religious killings don't vastly outnumber the atheist ones. Of course, you're all still in denial that Nazi's were Christians, or at the very least theists, so none of you who subscribe to that theory can accurately comment on this topic.

Anonymous Stingray April 03, 2014 5:13 PM  

Most of the churchians will pick the side with the most power. It's within their comfort zone that way.

Blogger Res Ipsa April 03, 2014 5:14 PM  

Don't recall anything about discriminating against gays, women, and blacks. Or aligning with some extreme political position. Must have missed that chapter..

1 Cor 6:9-11

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
NIV

some extreme political position

Traditional American morality, the protestant work ethic and personal liberty is only an "extreme political position" to those who hate those things. It's normal to everyone else.

Anonymous the bandit April 03, 2014 5:15 PM  

It's not even possible to show this as a historical fact.

It is. The disparity is that great, that even if you weight it against religion and for atheism, atheism is horrifically more deadly by orders of magnitude.

Blogger Marissa April 03, 2014 5:19 PM  

I also believe they should be boycotted, picketed, harassed in every legal way possible, but legally forced.

"Legal harassment"? What's that, like, legitimate rape?

OpenID cailcorishev April 03, 2014 5:20 PM  

Who's demanding the right to fire anybody because of their beliefs?

75,000 people who signed a petition demanding that Brendan Eich be fired unless he declared full support for the homosexualist agenda.

I'm quite confident that atheists were over-represented among that crowd.

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 03, 2014 5:20 PM  

Truth,
I'll call your Christian Nazis and raise you Mao, Stalin and Khmer Rouge.
Atheists have murdered more people by an order of magnitude.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 5:20 PM  

Truth, Vox has already done the freaking math for you.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter April 03, 2014 5:23 PM  

And, he was fired:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/03/mozilla-ceo-out-over-opposition-to-gay-marriage/

Lots of intolerance out there.

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 5:24 PM  

Jeff April 03, 2014 4:05 PM
Remember, Atheists invented gulags



actually, no. the term 'gulag' is derived from the Soviets but the labor camp internment of political dissidents comes from the Czars.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/museum/czar.htm
As de Custine put it, "In Russia, despite their limitless power, the rulers have an extreme fear of criticism, or even of plain speaking." Opponents of the status quo risked banishment to the harsh prison camps of Siberia. Only defeat in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905 sufficed to pressure Czar Nicholas II to recognize civil liberties and create an elected assembly to limit his power.

what the Socialists/Communists have done is demonstrate a penchant for mass murder never before imagined in the history of Man.



lordabacus April 03, 2014 4:24 PM
As for the Inquisition, "intimidating" or "not all that bad"?



you're dealing with Rabbits.

both assertions can be simultaneously true.



dh April 03, 2014 5:01 PM
in the 1960's, there as no fight. The Christian people are almost responsible for it to begin with.



not true, Christians have been fighting the whole way. that's why we can point to things we predicted would happen 20, 30 and 40 years ago that have actually come about.

the problem is that they haven't woken up to the fact that so long as they send their children to pub schools/indoctrination centers, each succeeding generation comes out more leftist than the last.

Anonymous Concerned Rabbit Hunter April 03, 2014 5:26 PM  

OK, he resigned. Still, he was forced out by other people's intolerance.

Blogger Chris Gerrib April 03, 2014 5:28 PM  

Res Ipsa:
Judge not lest ye be judged (Matthew 7:1-3)
He that is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7)

Jimmy, et. al, - we had this argument. Under the 14th Amendment, all people are guaranteed equal protection under the law. Hard to claim you're "equally protected" yet not able to buy a cake because the store owner doesn't like you.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:30 PM  

This here says that he was NOT fired:

She said that Eich — who created the JavaScript programming language, among other prominent computing achievements — had not been forced to resign by her or others on its board, which includes prominent Silicon Valley entrepreneur and investor Reid Hoffman.

Which simply means that the man is a coward. As you'd expect with that face.

Anonymous Noah B. April 03, 2014 5:30 PM  

"Of course, you're all still in denial that Nazi's were Christians"

That's because they weren't. You're a liar.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 03, 2014 5:30 PM  

"No, if you decide to sell cakes to the general public, I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash."

Shouldn't people without cash get cakes too? Why do you hate the poor? Don't they have enough trouble already without some elitist snob like you telling them they can't have cake?

Blogger Chris Gerrib April 03, 2014 5:30 PM  

(adding to my comment above) in any event, the 1st Amendment explicitly prohibits anybody from forcing you to attend a church. The argument is how far you can carry your religious beliefs into a public and for-profit enterprise.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 03, 2014 5:31 PM  

I will agree, the baker should not have been forced to bake a cake. And I'm not sure why the same-sex couple would want a cake from that baker.

Because they were assholes. You got that backwards, the baker was just following his own beliefs, the gay couple was intentionally going out to make trouble. This is apparently now a thing with activists. They go looking for religious folks who run businesses, and then - making sure the owner knows they are gay and antagonist towards the owner's beliefs - try get get "denied service" so they can sue.


I also believe they should be boycotted, picketed, harassed in every legal way possible, but legally forced.

So you support picketing and harassing abortion clinics, abortion doctors, and the leaders of Planned Parenthood?

Anonymous Erik April 03, 2014 5:31 PM  

Ah, the joys of "tolerance".

Anonymous WinstonWebb April 03, 2014 5:32 PM  

Chris,
Under your interpretation of the 14th Amendment, mosques should be required to host same-sex weddings if requested. If you disagree, please explain why.
Thank you,

Anonymous damntull April 03, 2014 5:32 PM  

@jack
Agreed. And the effort continues today.

Anonymous Josh April 03, 2014 5:33 PM  

Hey Chris,

Should a gay caterer be forced to cater the wake of Fred Phelps?

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 5:33 PM  

Truth April 03, 2014 5:08 PM
I will also say, the baker is an asshole. But it's not illegal to be an asshole.



aaaaaaaaannnd there's the problem.

queers, you see, having an unnatural affinity for and wanting to associate with assholes.

the unstated corollary to Truth's assertion being:
it's for more assholish to sue someone for not wanting to bake you a cake than it is to not want to bake a cake for a wedding you consider to be morally invalid.

Blogger RC April 03, 2014 5:34 PM  

The tagline to the cake story was that, at about the same time, the governor of New Mexico's hair stylist (gay) refused to style her hair any longer because of her views on homogamy, and that was deemed perfectly proper and acceptable. Logical consistency is not their strong suit.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 5:34 PM  

In either case, religious or irreligious murders, the problem always comes back to power concentrated in the hands of a few, unrestrained by the many. If "good" people of all stripes, would spend their time taking care of their immediate needs and alleviating acute suffering from those in their neighborhood, they'd have less temptation and less time to go off on some, to quote Obi-wan Kenobi, "damn fool idealistic crusade." It's usually those kinds of "moral" efforts that end up enriching the unscrupulous, robbing or killing the unsuspecting, and disillusioning many of those on the bandwagon.

Anonymous Rolf April 03, 2014 5:36 PM  

Just playing devil’s advocate for a moment, those on the left would likely say:

1) But those are not the same at all. We are just saying that you must treat everyone the same, which isn’t at ALL the same as requiring someone to attend church against their will.

2) And firing someone because they support free choice in partners is not at all the same as firing someone for being an intolerant, narrow-minded bigot.

3) You are supposing a false equivalency between blind religious faith in a mythical “god,” and trusting highly educated scientists whose only agenda is saving the physical world and all human life upon it which we KNOW exists.

They might also say “You are willing to die for your beliefs? Good, because we are willing to kill you for them.” (On this one, their track record is somewhat more supportable.)

Not saying any of those statements are true, but you need to think about the enemies’ positions in order to stand ready to respond to them properly.

WinstonWebb - That is a news story I'd LOVE to see the media tie themselves up in knots over.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:37 PM  

Does it take more work to dry out the logs, or to provide the dry logs with a spark? I'd say the former.

And that's the job for today.

Blogger Andre B April 03, 2014 5:37 PM  

Truth is a complete moron.

Kil Il Sung: 1.6 million
Pol Pot: 1.7 million
Lenin: 4 million

Hitler: 20 million

Stalin: 20 million to 60 million
Mao Zedong: 45 to 75 million

Even if you actually believe Hitler killed 20 million people IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOR, atheists still come out on top. EASILY.

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 5:38 PM  

It's not even possible to show this as a historical fact.

Awesome. I'll measure you by your own yardstick and say that it is impossible to know how many people Christians or even theists have killed throughout the years and so they are exonerated for their deeds in the past and going forward forever more. And since you don't subscribe to the theory that Stalin and his regime killed in the name of atheism and particularly killed Christians (Evidence:League of Militant Atheists I'll discredit you forever more on this matter as well.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 03, 2014 5:39 PM  

in any event, the 1st Amendment explicitly ...

...protects the free exercise of religion. So if we're following the 1st Amendment, then the baker doesn't have to bake the gay cake because requiring him to is infringing on his free exercise of religion. So if it's okay to force him to do business with people his religion tells him he should avoid, then we're not following the 1st Amendment. And if we're not following the 1st Amendment, then we can damned well tell you to get your ass to church on Sunday and sing those hymns with vigor.

So get those pipes tuned up, 'cause if you're off key, you'll have to pitch in more to the church fund.

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 5:42 PM  

Chris Gerrib April 03, 2014 5:30 PM
the 1st Amendment explicitly prohibits anybody from forcing you to attend a church.



you're such a retard.

the 1st Amendment prohibits THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from establishing a state church, neither it nor any other part of the Constitution or Bill of Rights constrain any other entity.

many of the 13 colonies had official state churches when the Constitution was enacted and passed laws based on denomination well into the 1800s.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/initiatives_awards/students_in_action/colonial.html



Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:43 PM  

Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

I don't regret having been tolerant. There was a time when it fell under this verse.

But this verse applies only with those two qualifiers.

Anonymous Jimmy April 03, 2014 5:44 PM  

Chris, you seem to be operating under the mistaken assumption that the majority of commentors here give a damn about Constitutional semantics or twisted interpretation via SCOTUS rules. We're talking about fundamental principles of human rights and human nature which go much, much deeper. You force someone to do [A] against their will, they're justified in forcing you to do something equivalent to [A] via the same principle. The law doesn't allow such reciprocity? Then eventually there will be revolt and violence.

Anonymous Androsynth April 03, 2014 5:45 PM  

No, if you decide to sell cakes to the general public, I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash.

Cool, so we can all go to gay bakers and demand they make cakes for the Westboro Baptist Church, right?

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 5:45 PM  

Equal protections and using some manipulated interpretation of the law to force someone to do business with you against that person's wishes to are not even in the same universe. Equal protection means that the laws apply to all, regardless of their personal identification. This is the opposite of that. This means that a group of "special" citizens can use the power of the state to coerce a good or service from the hands of those that do not want to do business with them. That kind of precedent is the way of madness and I am incredulous that homosexuals believe setting that kind of precedent will do anything but put them in harms way over the long term.

Anonymous Truth April 03, 2014 5:45 PM  

Stalin? Orthodox Christian
Pol Pot? Theravada Buddhist
Hitler? Christian

In almost any conflict, religion is a factor. So you can count nearly every death from every war as having a religious context. So, Lenin and Mao were atheists. Still, historically? It's far from a proven fact that atheist have killed more. Quite the opposite actually.

Here's a good reference, complete with religious Hitler quotes for the skeptics among you. http://www.examiner.com/article/refuting-the-myth-that-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot-were-atheists-1

Anonymous Jack Amok April 03, 2014 5:45 PM  

Judge not lest ye be judged (Matthew 7:1-3)

Really cracks me up that Gerrib puts that in there. Chris, are you saying you aren't judging bakers who don't want to bake gay cakes?

'Cause, that passage is pretty much exactly what Vox is talking about here. If leftists insist on judging everyone around them for how well they conform to leftist dogma, then they're going to get judged right back, and that's not something any of you are going to be real happy with.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 5:47 PM  

Wikipedia:

From 1932 to 1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five-year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country.[66]

How very Orthodox.

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 5:49 PM  

Truth, it's not even possible to show this as a historical fact. We can never know how many people of any belief killed anyone or why. Why do you insist on making noise when you are disqualified about this by your own standard?

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 5:49 PM  

Truth April 03, 2014 5:45 PM
Stalin? Orthodox Christian



and, once again, Truth LIES.


how did we not see this coming? that screen name bamboozles me so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion

Raised in the Georgian Orthodox faith, Stalin became an atheist. He followed the position that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. His government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.

Anonymous Noah B. April 03, 2014 5:49 PM  

Simply repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

Blogger Jeff April 03, 2014 5:50 PM  

Truth,

Stalin was definitely not an Orthodox Christian. Sure he attended seminary, but he gave up his beliefs when he became a communist.

Blogger Joseph Sanin April 03, 2014 5:51 PM  

>>Should a gay caterer be forced to cater the wake of Fred Phelps?

Should a Muslim cabdriver refuse to give your wife a cab ride because her head is uncovered?

It's Sharia law time, baby!

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 5:52 PM  

JartStar April 03, 2014 5:49 PM
Why do you insist on making noise when you are disqualified about this by your own standard?



this is typical Leftist debating tactics. many standards for everyone else ( depending on situation ) and NO STANDARD for self.

it's how you get the governor's queer hair dresser being allowed to refuse him service at the same time that a Christian baker is being forced out of business for trying to exercise the same right.

another way to look at it is Socialized Sociopathy.

which is what you get with pub.ed. schooling.

Anonymous Pinakeli April 03, 2014 5:53 PM  

If the state can pass a law or a court ruling that a business has to do business with all citizens does it not also have the power to require all citizens to do business with that same business?

Anonymous Alat April 03, 2014 5:54 PM  

This here says that he was NOT fired:

And the accused in the Soviet Trials of the 1930s were all guilty. They confessed it themselves!

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 5:56 PM  

does it not also have the power to require all citizens to do business with that same business?

Of course... see Obamacare.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 5:59 PM  

Truth: are you being serious? Everyone who has taken even a cursory look at any of these individuals knows that Stalin was not remotely Christian after he left the Seminary where he was trained. Hitler may have (we will never know) remained a theist of some stripe (though I tend to doubt it, despite his using appeals to religious sentiment) but he was not Christian in his beliefs, though he admired certain religiously founded models or institutions for their efficiency. Pol Pot and his crew killed targeted Buddhist monks, among others. Not really something you'd expect from a believing Therevada Buddhist. The position you've stake out here is not truthful.

Blogger JartStar April 03, 2014 6:03 PM  

Remember everyone when arguing with a Lefty:

1. Immediately measure them by their own yardstick once it is given.
2. Disqualify what they say in the same manner if their yardstick tries to disqualify what you say.
3. Never given them an inch and beat them with their yardstick every time they try to circumvent their own rules.

Blogger Andre B April 03, 2014 6:04 PM  

Truth:

"Stalin? Orthodox Christian
Pol Pot? Theravada Buddhist
Hitler? Christian"

What the hell is wrong with your head? You are either one of the dumbest people I've ever known or THE most intellectually dishonest person I have ever known, hands down. And that is a major accomplishment, I gotta give you that. How many chromosomes 21 have you got? I am guessing yours ain't a case of simple trisomy.

Blogger Leatherwing April 03, 2014 6:05 PM  

I guess today is the day I stop using Firefox and Thunderbird.

Anonymous Rolf April 03, 2014 6:09 PM  

JartStar - Great idea, BUT... most of the leftists I've debated over the years never give a yardstick, because they subscribe to the "critical theory" school of debate - always critique your opponent and their ideads, never offer anything solid of your own, never stand in one place to get hit. Either they know any good debate opponent will use any standard they propose to beat the crud out of them, or they really do believe it's all relative, nothing is fixed, they know they are using an elastic ruler, and they are sure THEY are right, and YOU are wrong, and poking holes in YOUR ideas is all they care about, because they CARE. *ahem*

OpenID cailcorishev April 03, 2014 6:09 PM  

So, all the people who switched to Firefox a few days ago to support Eich -- what browser are they switching to today?

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 6:10 PM  

I guess today is the day I stop using Firefox and Thunderbird.

The problem is, all the other alternatives creep me out a helluvalot more. Firefox is still probably the least in the New World Order's reach, since it's run by a non-profit and is genuinely opensource. Which is why I'm not switching back to Chrome, even though the thing that finally pushed me over the edge to start using Firefox again, was the OKCupid stunt.

Blogger Leatherwing April 03, 2014 6:10 PM  

@cailcorishev,
As much as I hate to get more involved with google, I will be using Chrome until I settle on a permanent browser choice.

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 6:13 PM  

I'm using Pale Moon. Yes, it's Firefox based but not found through Mozilla.

Anonymous Dan in Tx April 03, 2014 6:14 PM  

Didn't we already have the whole discussion dispelling the atheist myth about Christians killing more people than any other group? I'm reminded of the quote Vox put up awhile back from Mein kamp. Something about even after proving them wrong they come back the next day and act like the conversation never took place.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 6:18 PM  

Something about even after proving them wrong they come back the next day and act like the conversation never took place.

See how educational this place can be?

Anonymous Don April 03, 2014 6:23 PM  

Not every person who claims to be a Christian acts like one. Some have been seduced by the amorality of the atheist left. So Obama claims to be Christian as does Reid but they reject the Bible. They are more of a danger to us than atheists obviously. There is a reason God will reject the 'lukewarm'. When you battle with powers and principalities the uncommitted soldier is more dangerous than one who is openly against you. The Bible describes the armor of God as those of a heavy infantryman in the Roman era for a very good reason. You need to depend on the man in line next to you. You need to be able to use your shield of faith to protect yourself and those around you. Your line is only as strong as its weakest soldier.

Yeah, let them call themselves what they want. God knows his own. I posted this on the previous thread but the discussion has moved here. The point is the left is using the power of the state to enforce their beliefs contra the majority. Now when the tide turns it'll turn and hard. The sooner the left shuts the hell up and stops trying to build a dyke the less chance they'll have of getting swept away in a flood.

Blogger Salt April 03, 2014 6:24 PM  

OT -

This could get interesting...

A very interesting political development has taken place, but you can bet the Democrats will fight tooth-and-nail to prevent it. This week the state legislature of Michigan became the 34th state to demand a “Constitutional Convention” in the United States. Pursuant to Article 5 of the US Constitution, if 2/3rds of the states call for such a convention, (meaning 34 states) it MUST take place. We will see if this is actually honored. At the very least, there is no time requirement so this could be dragged out for years.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 6:24 PM  

For amusing contrast, I quote again:

From 1932 to 1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five-year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country.[66]

Anonymous VD April 03, 2014 6:26 PM  

In almost any conflict, religion is a factor. So you can count nearly every death from every war as having a religious context. So, Lenin and Mao were atheists. Still, historically? It's far from a proven fact that atheist have killed more. Quite the opposite actually.

It is absolutely and totally false that in almost any conflict, religion is a factor. And it is a proven fact that atheist-led governments have killed more of their own citizens than Christian-led governments.

You will either completely retract your statement here, Truth, or you will be banned for blatant and shameless dishonesty.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 6:26 PM  

Joseph Sanin: Yes, a Muslim cab driver should have the right to refuse service to my wife for not being veiled. That is actually a service to both of us since I have no desire to give an additional dollar to Muslims of that variety in the United States. By insisting that a Muslim has that right, I preserve for myself the right to refuse service to whomever I choose. That's called equal protection. Of course, we've practically undone this concept in some sectors in the United States but it does not change the fact that I will support any Muslim's right to refuse me and mine service because it goes without saying that if I deny them that right I've denied it to myself as well.

Anonymous VD April 03, 2014 6:26 PM  

Don't forget, LMG = The League of the Militant Godless.

Anonymous Noah B. April 03, 2014 6:32 PM  

"Stalin, religious or not, appealed to religion as a means to drive patriotism and war support."

You're moving the goalpost now. How predictable. And religious appeals were used by Stalin to save his people from annihilation, not to justify the purges.

Regarding Hitler, your knowledge does not even rise to the level of Wikipedia. You're nothing but another lying, wretched piece of leftist filth.

Anonymous Androsynth April 03, 2014 6:35 PM  

Should a Muslim cabdriver refuse to give your wife a cab ride because her head is uncovered?

If it's his cab, he has the right to refuse passengers for any reason he wishes.

Anonymous Pinakeli April 03, 2014 6:35 PM  

I've said before that Truth wouldn't know truth if it was stuck up his backside and inflated with helium. I only read the posts to see how far out in space they can get.

Blogger Glen Filthie April 03, 2014 6:37 PM  

I am not religious. I have a gay daughter. But if this gets stupid and violent - I would like to extend my apologies to the queers, militant atheists, and socialists. Nothing personal, just remember ya brought it on yourself.

Let me know if ya need ammo or another gun Vox.

Anonymous Red Comet April 03, 2014 6:38 PM  

That examiner article is so poorly researched and full of leaps of logic that even the atheists in the comment section are admitting it. Here's my favorite part:

Prince Norodom Sihanouk said, "Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler."

So, while Pol Pot was definitely not a Christian, he was also definitely not an Atheist.


I think we're looking at a Princess Bride scenario where the author of the article keeps using a word but it doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

Anonymous Suindara April 03, 2014 6:38 PM  

Weren't most of the victims of Hitler Christians?
My grandparents always told me lots of stories about how they helped German priests and laity, who were escaping both German and American persecution, settle here in Brazil.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 6:42 PM  

Truth's assertions puzzle me. Why is it so hard for atheists to admit that some atheists have been murderous dictators? Why is that hard? I have no trouble admitting that there have been Christians who have been murderous dictators. And I won't even engage in the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

Why is it that hard to admit that there are people who share some of our personal beliefs whose actions we believe to be evil or wrong? Are they afraid that it will somehow undermine their argument that there is no God? The two are unrelated.

There is no reason to think that saintly atheists are somehow more correct in terms of objective reality than cruel and corrupt Christians. The argument about whether God exists or not does not hinge on the behavior of either side.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 6:46 PM  

Switched to Pale Moon from Firefox. Not so much due to this brouhaha - it was merely a bonus - but because this guy understands one of my pet peeves in most opensource software: Compiling it without any modern processor optimizations, so that it would work on a legacy PC which practically nobody has. And therefore be slow in all the actual PC's it's being run in.

Now I have 64bit browser aimed at a modern processor. Hooray for sanity.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 6:46 PM  

Why is it that hard to admit that there are people who share some of our personal beliefs whose actions we believe to be evil or wrong? Are they afraid that it will somehow undermine their argument that there is no God? The two are unrelated.

Because for them, lying is as natural as breathing.

Anonymous Androsynth April 03, 2014 6:47 PM  

It's the opposite side of the coin as to why they can't admit to any merit whatsoever in someone they disagree with in any way. They also have to claim absolute sainthood of anyone they do agree with.

Blogger Whiskey April 03, 2014 6:48 PM  

Jartstar --

The Crusades for some time held the Holy Lands. They recaptured: Spain, Sicily, Malta, Southern Italy, and Southern France. They captured the Baltics from Pagans.

Nor were the rise of the Seljuk Turks a function of the Crusades. Rather, it was the Mongol invasions that destroyed the Abbasid Arab Dynasty, and allowed breathing room for the Byzantines and Catholics alike. Put it this way -- the Crusades put European power from England, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy into the heart of the Muslim Caliphate, and stayed there for centuries. Something the superior technology and organizational and manpower Muslims could not do in reverse. Yes the Crusaders sacked Constantinople. And there was much evil and stupidity involved. But overall it showed that European Christians had power and would use it, a useful deterrent for those who in the Muslim world argued that Christians were weak and easily beaten.

The Crusades were started because Muslims were killing and torturing pilgrims to the Holy Land. Perhaps new protectors will be found for beleagured Christians. Since Gays want punishment for those who don't celebrate them.

Anonymous Pinakeli April 03, 2014 6:54 PM  

OK, guys, thanks a lot for getting me all excited about an optimized browser. Then I find it only works for that Last Century OS!

So, how about a good browser for Linux?

Blogger Shibes Meadow April 03, 2014 6:55 PM  

You are in favor of the State forcing a baker to make a cake for a person with whom he does not wish to trade.

Typical "liberal": only those who agree with your ideology get to be free.

Franco knew how to handle communists like you.

Blogger Some dude April 03, 2014 6:56 PM  

@Sherwood

Its a good question. A better one is why would an atheist even care? According to them when you get down to it, we're just protoplasm.

Then again, maybe that the answer. The truth is, at heart, they don't care at all, they can't. All this talk of morals for an atheist is just opium to ease the conscience and get the public off their backs.

If society at large figured that out, then at best they'd have to hide their ideas. Their little party would definitely be over.

Anonymous Don April 03, 2014 6:57 PM  

Markku - How is Palemoon running? Any issues. Sorry for the OT.

Vox - I always thought LMG meant light machine gun.

Anonymous Meh April 03, 2014 6:58 PM  

It's nice to think about symmetrical oppression -- that someday the Right will get to have a turn sticking it to the Left the way the Left has been sticking it to the Right for many decades now.

But it's not gonna happen.

The Left is going to keep making the Right eat excrement, and there is no sign at all that the Right is going to do anything but grumble about the lack of condiments to put on it while they eat.

If Christians are willing to die for their beliefs, how come the Left has succeeded in its massive, ongoing attempts to subvert and destroy Christianity? Exactly what trench are the Christians willing to die in if they have been pushed out of the gay marriage trench, which they have been?

Blogger Some dude April 03, 2014 6:59 PM  

@Whisky

Since Gays want punishment for those who don't celebrate them.

I think you actually have it backwards. I think deep down inside they actually want to be punished and they go after religious folks who won't stand up to them and stop them.

Look, what they are doing is evil, it's degenerate and wrong. I don't care what anyone believes, there is no way the human mind is OK with acting in a manner contrary to the prime biological imperative - pass on your fucking genes. And if we are right, and we are souls, well man, that's some crazy conflict going on in there.

I don't think they are OK with what they do, I think they are in torment from their own evil, they just hide it really well, maybe even from themselves. And I think they desperately want people to stop them.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 7:00 PM  

Markku: If Truth is any indication of the ranks of atheists, it seems they are not above distorting a great deal. Sorry, Stalin belongs to the atheist camp and so does Mao. Deal with it. Androsynth makes a good point.

I can admit there there have been intelligent and decent atheists without agreeing to their views. Nor do I need to uncritically paint halos on everyone who claims belief in God.

Anonymous VD April 03, 2014 7:01 PM  

If Christians are willing to die for their beliefs, how come the Left has succeeded in its massive, ongoing attempts to subvert and destroy Christianity?

Because the Left has built its wall one brick at a time, all the while denying that they are doing so. If they had ever come right out in the open from the beginning, they would have been shut down and shut down hard. Even now, in these comments, you can see their denials that they have done anything at all. They are snakes and liars; the innocent have a hard time grasping the depth of their shameless dishonesty.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 7:02 PM  

Pinakeli:

The issue is not relevant for Linux, as you can compile Firefox yourself, and have EXACTLY the right optimizations for your processor. It's even better than having a pre-compiled, optimized binary such as Pale Moon.

As for how it's working, looking good so far. AdBlock Plus installed, Netflix works. Haven't had time to test much more.

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 7:10 PM  

Sherwood family April 03, 2014 6:42 PM
Why is that hard?



because the lying is reflexive and habitual.

when you've spent your life playing social dominance games ( with all the posturing and misrepresentation that goes along with that ), every minor tactical disadvantage must be concealed.

because minor tactical disadvantages are used as a social bludgeon ...

Blogger Chiva April 03, 2014 7:10 PM  

@Meh. I don't know what the trigger will be. Most likely it will be the smallest of circumstances that will be the trigger, but it will happen.

Once the hard times come, then we will have to become hard people. The beliefs and fantasies of our "fat" times will be tested, and found wanting.


Anonymous rho April 03, 2014 7:10 PM  

Meh:
It's nice to think about symmetrical oppression -- that someday the Right will get to have a turn sticking it to the Left the way the Left has been sticking it to the Right for many decades now.

But it's not gonna happen.


I doubt there will be symmetrical oppression. Opposition to the kind of antics that led to Eich's resignation will emerge a lot more quietly. Out-breeding, more careful judgement in who you hire and who you work with, building alternative agencies for news/entertainment, etc.

If the Left wants a culture war, they should get one. Unfortunately for the Left, it won't be fought on Twitter and Facebook.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 7:10 PM  

The Left has succeeded because they create excuses that please the carnal mind of man. As long as men remain unrepentant the fabrications of the Left will appeal to them. But for those that recognize their own sins and choose repentance rather than rationalization the Left's cunning crafted fables quickly lose their gilded sheen

Anonymous Res Ipsa April 03, 2014 7:13 PM  

Chris Gerrib,

I realize that your public school didn't provide you with an adequate education, so I'll explain it to you. Truth said he hadn't read something. I simply provided him with reading material. I made no judgments. I quoted. I didn't throw any stones. I didn't encourage anyone else to throw stones.

Free association is a basic human right. When I graduated form college I went to a grad school fair with about 70 or so universities represented. I was interested in attending a certain school. The rep told me that I was the wrong color to attend her school. She didn't look at my transcripts, or ask what I wanted to study. She said no, and told me why. I went someplace else. They didn't want me because of race.

The buttsex crowd wants to say who can and can not be included in society based on who approves of and affirms their lifestyle. That's not free association, that's tyranny. Dress it up anyway you want, there is no difference between your basic belief system and methods than Hitler, or Stalin.

Anonymous johnc April 03, 2014 7:18 PM  

Whatever happened to Helen's Page? I think that was a friggin' great idea. If we're going to be discriminated against based on political beliefs, then we might as well stick together and do business amongst ourselves instead of empowering these nuts.

Who's up for forking Firefox?

Anonymous Fake Russian Guy April 03, 2014 7:23 PM  

If Putin bake cake, is putting Polonium-210 .

Anonymous Jack Amok April 03, 2014 7:25 PM  

Who's up for forking Firefox?

I'm sorry, I served my time in the trenches for the Browser Wars.

But, y'know, it's not like using FFox is supporting them. IE, Chrome, FFox, they're all free. Use the one you like. Save your energy for finding alternatives to things you have to pay for.

Blogger IM2L844 April 03, 2014 7:28 PM  

There is going to be a huge atheist convention held in Dearborn beginning the first week in October. Every atheist who's anybody is going to be there. I would encourage all atheists to reserve their rooms now.

If only I could pull this off.

Blogger Hermit April 03, 2014 7:29 PM  

And not forget that persecution makes us stronger.
We've been through darker times and we won, from a bunch of persecuted israelites to the greatest religion on Earth.

Blogger The Gray Man April 03, 2014 7:36 PM  

PREACH IT!

So plainly stated that only a rabbit can argue with it.

Anonymous beerme April 03, 2014 7:40 PM  

Markku: I just switched to Pale Moon after reading your posts on it. Thank you very much, the speed is immediately noticeable and I didn't have to give any of my preferred Firefox add-ons.

Anonymous p-dawg April 03, 2014 7:42 PM  

@Truth:

"Oh, I didn't realize that you (or any human) got to decide who is a real Christian and who is not. I thought it was those who repent and accept Jesus that got into heaven. Don't recall anything about discriminating against gays, women, and blacks. Or aligning with some extreme political position. Must have missed that chapter."

You must not have very good reading comprehension.
1. By their fruits, you will know them. This tells us to discriminate based on past behavior. It also tells us who is a 'true Christian'.
2. Many are called, but few are chosen. Not everyone gets rewarded for this life.
3. No man has gone to heaven.
4. There is no more extreme political position to take than that of the Scripture. It's the only position I know of that both secular and religious authorities will fight you for taking.

I think you might want to try reading the Scripture again. Maybe this time, start at the beginning and keep your eyes open while you're reading.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 7:51 PM  

I wouldn't have known about Pale Moon, had Salt not mentioned it, though.

This makes me suspect that much of Chrome's speed is simply due to a little bit of sanity in choosing what processor optimizations to include in the compile.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 7:52 PM  

OT and OH My GOD. Shaking with anger at this point. These people are LUNATICS.

http://www.maciverinstitute.com/2014/04/White-Privilege-Conf-Teacher/index.php

We are at war with insane people.

Anonymous civilServant April 03, 2014 7:54 PM  

Who’s we? I’m assuming not “churchians”? What percentage of people who self-identify as Christian are “Real” and what percentage are “churchian”?

Indeed. When will the denomination wars begin? Only "Real Christians" should be allowed.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 7:57 PM  

Heh heh. From the link:

Another topic of discussion was how white people's actions, like donating to charity or helping a family in need, are inherently racist. A white attendee of the conference told a story about how her family donated school supplies to one of her classmates when she was in first grade because the family could not afford them.

The receiving family had moved from India, according to the attendee. While she was happy to be helping when it happen years ago, she was now questioning her family's motives.

"It was like 'well why don't you swoop in and save the day and give her all this stuff because we can afford to do that for them' kind of mentality," she said in the session.

Radersma agreed and said the family that was helped likely felt discriminated against.


I absolutely agree. It is, like, super-racist. I certainly won't be engaging in such a discrimination.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 8:03 PM  

Half the people at that conference will likely be unwilling participants in flash-beatings within the next five years.

They'll likely also think they deserved it.

And so will I.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 8:03 PM  

(For different reasons.)

Blogger Rantor April 03, 2014 8:04 PM  

How apropos, studying the Gospelo of John and today read of Peter's betrayal. My wife was at a churchian activity that invited a Rabbi to speak. She was upset at the women who would not mention Jesus out of politeness to the Rabbi. Nevertheless many women stood by their belief and discussed their faith in Christ. The sadness of it all was that the Rabbi knew he was talking to Protestant women and there was no sign that he was upset by women who spoke of Christ. The politically correct women betrayed Christ for no reason.

While I don't think we must go hitting everyone over the head with Christ, neither should we ever cower when it truly is right and appropriate to profess his holy name.

Blogger Tommy Hass April 03, 2014 8:11 PM  

"Don't recall anything about discriminating against gays, women, and blacks. Or aligning with some extreme political position. Must have missed that chapter."

Why is this gamma faggot still not banned?

You're literally asking whether sodomy is accepted in Christianity.

Anonymous bob k. mando April 03, 2014 8:13 PM  

Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 7:52 PM
OT and OH My GOD. Shaking with anger at this point. These people are LUNATICS.



i would ask you if you were slow on the uptake ...

but pretty much all of western civ is still where you were at yesterday.

this is what i'm talking about when i tell you that crypto-Marxists have completely infiltrated the US pub.ed

they declared war on us, but they did so almost 100 years ago. most people still haven't caught on.

THEY KNOW FULL WELL WHAT THEY DO.

"Teaching is a political act, and you can't choose to be neutral. You are either a pawn used to perpetuate a system of oppression or you are fighting against it," Radersma said during the session. "And if you think you are neutral, you are a pawn."

OpenID cailcorishev April 03, 2014 8:16 PM  

Why is it that hard to admit that there are people who share some of our personal beliefs whose actions we believe to be evil or wrong?

Probably several reasons, but I think a big one is that they didn't arrive at their positions via reason, so they aren't equipped to argue the details.

For instance, I support the idea of a Catholic monarchy because I've studied it a bit and come to the conclusion that it's the best system out there. I know some such rulers have been terrible, but I think the good ones outweighed the bad and the system has advantages over others (certainly over democracy). So if someone comes along and says, "Hey, what about King Whatsit poisoning all his enemies and eating babies?" I'm not thrown into a tizzy because I already know they weren't perfect, so I can calmly respond with, "Yes, it's not perfect, but [counterargument]."

The leftist can't do that because he didn't do the reasoning to get there. Since he arrived at his beliefs via emotion, he has no idea what emotional appeal might swing people the other way. For all he knows, your example may very well blow apart his position completely, so he has to fight every assault on his beliefs no matter how small.

Also, since the leftist doesn't believe in objective truth he doesn't value it. Normal people feel an obligation to acknowledge truth when it's spoken, even if it makes them uncomfortable or hurts their position. The leftist feels no such compulsion. All claims of fact are valuable only inasmuch as they advance the leftist's goals, regardless of their truth of falsehood.

Anonymous Salt April 03, 2014 8:19 PM  

I wouldn't have known about Pale Moon, had Salt not mentioned it, though.

I didn't know about it till someone here mentioned it the other day. Researched it and it looked pretty good. Speed is great.

Anonymous BlackJack April 03, 2014 8:20 PM  

Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant has signed SB2681, affectionately known by the histrionic left as the "turn away the gays bill". I call it blow-back.

Blogger Tom Kratman April 03, 2014 8:25 PM  

" I have the right to demand that you sell to anybody who has the cash."

You've found some fascinating things in the constitution perviously, Chris, the kinds of things even properly trained lawyers don't seem to find. But, of course, those trained and educated lawyers aren't you, so labor under a severe handicap.

Don't suppose you can tell us where you found this in the constitution, eh?

Blogger ajw308 April 03, 2014 8:29 PM  

We invented the Crusade and the Inquisition, two institutions so historically intimidating that atheists still shiver and tell each other scary stories about them centuries after the event.
Don't forget about the Tea Party. While it may not be talked about on 100 years, if does leave progressives wide eyed and trembling /s

Anonymous Vidad April 03, 2014 8:31 PM  

When you debate an atheist, remember to whom you're talking.

"The ____ says in his heart 'there is no God'"

Fill in the blank!

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 8:32 PM  

Cailcorishev: While I believe that leftists are open to tactics that advance their position (whether tactically or strategically) I'm not sure I can accept the idea that the average leftist (that is to say the usual type one sees on the interwebs arguing their point vehemently) does not honestly believe their position to be correct.

Obviously, their general belief that there is not objective truth tends to undercut this position. But it seems that there is no reason for them to get emotionally keyed up at others disagreeing with their position, if they did not believe in their heart of hearts that their position was not commensurate in some way with reality. Otherwise, it is just staking out a random position with no more value than any other and then fighting to defend it to the death. I am not sure I can make sense of that.

I agree that it is all about emotion. But the reasons for the emotion, in my opinion, are based entirely on personal preferences. Those who embrace atheism, for example, do so because they prefer the notion of an atheistic universe to one in which there is a god, rather than having some very objective view of things. They will cite facts in an objective way to back up their claims but that is not the reason for them believing them.

Now, as to the professional leftists, It seems that many of them truly do not believe the claims they are making. Their pursuit is for power alone and they will use any argument or method that gets them more of it.



Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 8:36 PM  

Bob, no. I'm not slow on the uptake at all. It's just that every now and then, I actually read what they say at their conferences, and it makes my blood boil. You get jaded to it after awhile, and then something like this reaches out and slaps the blank stare off your face and makes you want to punch a progressive until he stops moving. But you don't, and then you get jaded again, and then a month later it happens again, and you read what they actually say at their "rallies", and the red mist descends again.

And you can leave off "crypto" from your appellation. They're straight-up, now. Uncut. No rocks, no mixer, no chaser.

They don't even try to hide it any more, as that essay proves.

Khruschev was right, and McCarthy only had a little tiny hint of a clue. Just enough of a clue to get him vilified for all history. The Man Who Knew Too Much, And Really Only Knew An Iceberg Tip.

Anonymous Jimmy April 03, 2014 8:36 PM  

Since the CEO of Mozilla resigned, this sends a contradictory message.

You cannot be against gay marriage or you'll be fired, but gays will keep you employed anyways because they want to be served. All cake bakers should insist on being boycotted. The pressure is just too much to withstand.

Maybe the cake bakers should simply announce they donated to Prop 8. The gays will stay away.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 8:37 PM  

Vlad:

Mr. T pities him, that's all I can say.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 8:39 PM  

There is one important impulse to cultivate, for these and the coming days. Whenever one finds himself seething in impotent rage at things such as in Taqiyyotomist's link, then immediately do the one thing that you can; use the one thermonuclear weapon you have in your pocket.

Pray.

Ask for God to be quick in his judgement. That anger is good. Use it to fuel your prayer. We in the West tend to lack zeal.

Anonymous Don April 03, 2014 8:49 PM  

Markku - I have been warning people when the judgement comes it will not be pretty. Nations are judged. I don't know about Finland but the US has been worshiping Moloch and Mammon too long. Carthage got off easy. Makes me wonder about the Yellowstone Caldera. It's certainly less than we deserve. I don't think the worshipers of Moloch killed forty plus million babies.

Anonymous Gay, Married, Progressive Christian in SF April 03, 2014 8:56 PM  

"If you have the right to demand that I bake you a cake, then I have the right to force you to attend church, mosque, or synagogue."

I had to see it with my own eyes to believe it. My husband told me he read this as an example of "logic". This is what passes foe logic on right wing blogs?

The only way this statement is at all logical is if Mr. Day is merely saying "The state can do whatever it wants". Which is true. We could amend the constitution to say any crazy thing.

However, because a state writes an anti discrimination bill barring private businesses from denying service to blacks, Chinese, wiccans or gays, this does in no way logically suggest anyone can be coerced into going to church. This young man needs an education in the way judgements and morals, not logic, dictate what the law is.


Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 8:56 PM  

Wikipedia:

Finland:
"As of 2010, the abortion rate was 10.4 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44 years."

USA:
There were fewer than 17 abortions for every 1,000 women of child-bearing age.

---

So, better, but not good. I'd say that Finland will face God's judgement also, and I will be happy to see it.

Blogger Hanns Strudle extra gooey April 03, 2014 8:57 PM  

They want to come off as morally superior, all the while sucking on Christian morals like a hungry parasite, then denying moral absolutes. It's a strange mind, that of an atheist; however, I don't believe anyone is truly an atheist. It's a religion with its own creation myth, gathering places( reddit, Atheist Chirches in England), and corny superhero logo. They're self-obsessed and at the same time, vacuous.

Blogger Sherwood family April 03, 2014 8:58 PM  

I'd also add to Markku's admonition that when we pray should we pray for the Holy Spirit to help us see things as they really are. What fallible man seems to need more than anything is help to see the truth and to live according to it, especially when the truth is not congenial to our deeply held and cherished personal opinions.

Blogger Markku April 03, 2014 8:59 PM  

However, because a state writes an anti discrimination bill barring private businesses from denying service to blacks, Chinese, wiccans or gays, this does in no way logically suggest anyone can be coerced into going to church.

Once again, they had given service to many homosexual customers before. It was the occasion that they didn't wish to provide services for.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 9:02 PM  

Well, that settles it. Vox needs an education.

OMG.

Look, if I can be forced by you to praise your "god", then the reverse also applies, in a "fair" world.

Baking and decorating a cake for you, and decorating it with your LGBTQ man-man figurines is praising your "god".

I would do it anyway (because you people sue as a religious rite), but I would drink about 12 beers before decorating it.

Blogger Taqiyyotomist April 03, 2014 9:03 PM  

At LEAST twelve.

Anonymous VD April 03, 2014 9:05 PM  

However, because a state writes an anti discrimination bill barring private businesses from denying service to blacks, Chinese, wiccans or gays, this does in no way logically suggest anyone can be coerced into going to church.

Yes, it absolutely does. Once the state has arrogated to itself the right to dictate how one individual is forced to spend his time and labor, it can dictate anything it likes. It doesn't matter if that involves forcing the individual to bake a cake he doesn't wish to bake or sit through a church service he doesn't wish to hear.

And no man who claims he has a "husband" can be trusted to speak correctly about logic, let alone morals. You are not married anymore than you are a crocodile.

Anonymous Gay, Married Progressive Christian in SF April 03, 2014 9:06 PM  

"Once again, they had given service to many homosexual customers before. It was the occasion that they didn't wish to provide services for."

It doesn't matter. The voters in 21 states have decided you can't deny service based in sexual orientation. Not servicing the homosexual couple in this instance violated the law. It doesn't matter if they failed to violate the law in the past.

Blogger Hanns Strudle extra gooey April 03, 2014 9:06 PM  

He practices income discremanation.

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