ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2017 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Friday, July 18, 2014

18,000 and H1B

Item 1: Microsoft Chief Executive Officer Satya Nadella kicked off one of the largest layoffs in tech history on Thursday, hoping to reshape the aging PC industry titan into a nimbler rival to Apple and Google, and jolt a culture at the company that is used to protecting its existing Windows and Office franchises. Microsoft Corp said on Thursday it will slash up to 18,000 jobs, or 14 percent of its workforce, over the next 12 months as it almost halves the size of its newly acquired Nokia phone business and tries to become a cloud-computing and mobile-friendly software company. The larger-than-expected cuts are the deepest in the software giant's 39-year history and come five months into Nadella's tenure.

Item 2: Bill Gates says the United States' position as the global leader in innovation is at risk. The Microsoft chairman says there is a deficit of Americans with computer-science degrees, and he wants the government to make it easier for Microsoft to hire foreign-born workers. Gates testified before the House Committee on Science Technology on Wednesday about what he sees as a need to liberalize rules for H1-B visas for skilled foreign workers. Currently, Congress has set an annual limit on H1-Bs at 65,000, with an additional 20,000 earmarked for foreign students with advanced degrees from U.S. universities.

Item 3: Immigration and visa reform are necessary to boost the U.S. economy and job market, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg said Monday. Disputing the idea that Silicon Valley execs are simply trying to secure a higher number of H1B visas for their own companies, Zuckerberg told attendees at the event: "This is something that we believe is really important for the future of our country -- and for us to do what's right."

It's not terribly difficult to understand why nations experiencing economic stress are so often inclined to resort to nationalizing corporations, not when the corporate executives are so blatantly acting against the interests of the citizenry.

Labels: ,

85 Comments:

Blogger JP July 18, 2014 6:18 AM  

Fark

Blogger Rantor July 18, 2014 6:33 AM  

I have a friend who works in the Seattle software industry. Employment is normally only a year or two before you are off looking for the next job. The companies prefer college grads and foreigners because they cost less. He is in his 50s, so despite his experience and ability to contribute to projects, most companies don't want to hire him as more pay is expected. He has found getting jobs harder and harder as he ages, despite great experience, skills and being very smart. He has spent a lot of his off time researching and working on AI, a hobby he hopes may lead to a significant breakthrough... Gotta stay in the game when between jobs.

I don't believe it is about a lack of skilled Americans, Microsoft and company just want a young workforce without families that will put in 60 or more hours a week for 40 hours pay. I can understand their desires, but I don't think it should be US policy to import cheap labor to reduce costs in the marketplace. That is of course what the big corporations, chamber of commerce, and many statist Republicans want.

Anonymous zen0 July 18, 2014 6:39 AM  

"The thing that limits us is hiring the world's best engineers," he says, noting that 60 percent of the students at the top U.S. computer-science departments are foreign-born.

Why is that? Did the school system dumb down americans too much?

Anonymous dB July 18, 2014 6:45 AM  

This is all garbage. We have the skilled people. This is just a race to the bottom. And once you get to the bottom, where there is no innovation, then what?

Blogger Cataline Sergius July 18, 2014 6:50 AM  

The really scary part is I am starting to see the beginning's of an American Brain Drain.

The young guys I've talked to recently, the truly best and brightest, all seem to be looking at foreign job opportunities.

Anonymous YIH July 18, 2014 6:50 AM  

Rantor:
Microsoft and company just want a young workforce without families that will put in 60 or more hours a week for 40 hours pay.
Bingo. It's also why corporate america likes 'gays' so much - no encumbering families.

Anonymous Stilicho July 18, 2014 7:01 AM  

Anyone seen the stats on comp sci grads over the last decade? I seem to recall a glut not a lack.

Blogger Cataline Sergius July 18, 2014 7:02 AM  

On the other hand...

Steve Ballmer almost ran Microsoft into the ground. He simply couldn't picture a world where Microsoft could loose customers. The entire company has that problem. Adam Orth and his #dealwithit hash tag was a perfect example of a corporate hubris that has been bred into it's employees.

We will tell the customer what he wants and what he is getting. They've never complained before...or rather we've never had to listen to their complaints before. Why should things be any different now?

When the iPhone came out Steve Ballmer was making all kinds of fun of it. He had the future in his hand and he couldn't see it at all. Hubris.

Anonymous Roundtine July 18, 2014 7:07 AM  

The young guys I've talked to recently, the truly best and brightest, all seem to be looking at foreign job opportunities.

This is the great leveling. Once you reach the point where global wages are competitive, then the only thing you've got to attract talent is low costs or better living conditions. By importing Third Worlders to go on welfare and the whole cultural Marxist/affirmative action system working against whites, plus wealthier India and China able to retain and attract back their diaspora, the U.S. is in a bad position. Young people also don't care as much about pollution and other things that may keep older people away. Then there are countries like Estonia that have very favorable laws for certain industries. A lot of people may move back to the States after earning money, as other foreigners do after working in America, but the businesses they build will remain foreign.

Anonymous TMQ Fanboy July 18, 2014 7:22 AM  

It's my understanding that nearly all of these lay-off are happening at the former Nokia, which everyone saw coming when it was purchased.

Blogger J Curtis July 18, 2014 7:25 AM  

From yesterday..

"On Wednesday, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce claimed that it has never supported amnesty, despite vowing to spend at least $50 million to ram through amnesty legislation and oppose anti-amnesty and Tea Party candidates." Link

Anonymous Azimus July 18, 2014 7:26 AM  

So, wait: Bill Gates is complaining there aren't ENOUGH trained computer programmers as he simultaneously dumps thousands of them into the unemployment line? Is he insane?

Anonymous Toby Temple July 18, 2014 7:30 AM  

Bingo. It's also why corporate america likes 'gays' so much - no encumbering families.

Gays are now getting married! They want have their own family, too, you know!

On a more serious note, do Gates and Zuckerberg really think that each US state is having the same "problem"?

Anonymous Dark July 18, 2014 7:33 AM  

company's give no shits about you or your country sooner we wake up to the threat of these massive world wide economic empires the better for us all

Anonymous against H1Bs July 18, 2014 7:37 AM  

The H1B Indian IT workers typically work at 1/10 - 1/8 of the rates paid to American born employees. It's all about the money and easy control of the employees. The foreign born are effectively indentured servants that will work for less and for longer hours than native born employees. It's short sighted policy as monies paid are partially sent overseas and not spent into the U.S. economy. While bringing in people who's first allegiance is not to the U.S. and in some cases (Islamic workers from Pakistan come to mind) wish to see the U.S. destroyed.

Anonymous ArchaicSteam July 18, 2014 7:37 AM  

Read the comments on a tech website about jobs, it isn't a lack of STEM workers but rather the companies setting the bar impossibly high for job requirements (for example requiring 10 years of experience for a programming language that is 8 years old) so they can use loopholes for the H1B visas.

Anonymous Fran July 18, 2014 7:46 AM  

Well Gee, if only they'd stop turning down applicants because racist, sexist,istists, they might find the talent.

Anonymous TroperA July 18, 2014 8:14 AM  

Well, what a co-ink-eedink. The very thing that Zuckerberg says is "really important for the future of our country" and "what's right" is the exact same thing that is the most profitable for him and his buddies. Well, when you're a raging narcissist living in a world where yours is the only soul worth considering, then that which profits you is "really important" and a thing to be done no matter how much nameless rabble you have to sacrifice for it.

Anonymous Tom July 18, 2014 8:21 AM  

@ Cataline: "The young guys I've talked to recently, the truly best and brightest, all seem to be looking at foreign job opportunities."

Actually the true best and brightest are setting up their own businesses (preferably location independent) while setting sail for foreign shores. Fuck the US but fuck corporations too. A great example is Victor Pride from Bold and Determined who is in his late twenties and makes six figures as an entrepreneur while living in Thailand for less than half the cost of living in the US. This is the sort of man who once upon a time would be getting married to a virgin and popping out a bunch of kids while expanding his business empire and instead he has fled the country and if he ever has kids they will be likely half Thai and an accident. Meanwhile D'won and Rico have each fathered a dozen kids between their different welfare mamas.
I myself aim to quit the workforce (and maybe western countries) because I see no point. I'd rather live my life making 15,000 a year for the rest of my life provided I never had to answer to a boss again. There is not a white nation left on this planet that is not betraying its people and not a first world country that is not actively trying to reduce people like me to an indentured servant. I still value the idea of a family (with a hot blond to carry on the master race) but it is becoming less and less likely in a country where you cannot support your wife to stay at home, you cannot let your kids attend school thanks to the refugee rapists who enrich the classroom. Worst of all is to look back on your grandfather's time and see what they had and surrendered without a fight and then to finally have the will to fight but no ground on which to make a last stand because the enablers who have done nothing (Nate I'm looking at you and your vaunted Generation X) and thus given us young men a hopeless position to defend.
Instead I say fuck it and let the US have its vibrant enrichment and dollar a day workforce. I'll be expatriated and retired and hopefully raising kids with some half decent foreign white chick who never gave her soul with her virginity during college.

Anonymous DT July 18, 2014 8:31 AM  

I wonder how much money American born software engineers would be making if there was no H1B visa program.

I wonder how many families they would form, how many houses and cars they would buy, and how much they would pay in taxes.

I wonder how much better software would be if companies didn't rush crap to market but were instead willing to pay competent people at every level, especially at the level of testing and quality assurance.

I wonder why I should care at all about a government that sells out its own people on the basis of testimony from obvious liars.

And I wonder why I should ever pay for another product from someone like Microsoft when I know the money they collect is used against the better interests of my home. Why I should not instead "support" hackers by using their unlocked versions.

I also find myself wondering why obvious lies to a Congressional committee do not carry penalties such as...I don't know...jail time. Why are Bill Gates and Lois Lerner not sharing a cell? He could recommend lawyers to her and she could give him tax tips, clearly a win-win.

Anonymous RedJack July 18, 2014 8:37 AM  

Free trade destroys nations.

We refused to learn from the British.

Blogger James Dixon July 18, 2014 8:46 AM  

> This is all garbage. We have the skilled people. This is just a race to the bottom.

Exactly.

> I also find myself wondering why obvious lies to a Congressional committee do not carry penalties such as...I don't know...jail time.

I doubt this testimony was given under oath, unfortunately.

Anonymous Porky July 18, 2014 8:50 AM  

Bill Gates is more equal than all of you so STFU.

OpenID cailcorishev July 18, 2014 8:56 AM  

Sometimes I wonder: what job that Americans gladly do today will they refuse to do in a decade or two (assuming continued mass immigration)? Ten-to-twenty years ago, when the Internet was booming and CS and computer-related engineering fields were all the rage, no one would have guessed that today's American students would refuse to enter those fields for any price, or would be too stupid and useless to be employable, and that companies would be forced to go overseas for capable people.*

So: what job that's prized by Americans today, which provides a good middle-class income, will Americans tire of and refuse to do tomorrow?

* [Yes, that was sarcasm.]

Blogger CarpeOro July 18, 2014 9:11 AM  

It is all about their bottom accounting line. I've been outsourced and replaced by 5 Indians before - who couldn't do my job. I went back not once but twice for contracts, not to mention leaving early enough (they apparently thought I'd ride it out until pushed out the door) that they paid me double for an extra week covering while the replacements tried to learn "the environment". Actually, they were trying to learn the application I support, having little or no back ground in that area even. When the rest of the IT department at that international company was outsourced, they didn't lost their contract to the new company. Five years down the road I've heard some rumblings that they are immensely dissatisfied with the results (over time? that cost you more). Contracts are etched in stone and going past them (which happens frequently because the out source companies are so bad) cost. In the end, the level of competence just isn't there and any "cost savings" is eaten up by over runs.
I've worked with many third world contractors and found communication issues, lack of rounded IT experience and they are often simply inadequate at their job. It makes me cringe a bit each time I am told my contact for an issue is one.
50 next year, I settled for a job paying below what I once made simply to have longer term job prospects. Attrition in my area is horrible, so I have that on my side.

Anonymous Stilicho July 18, 2014 9:17 AM  

So: what job that's prized by Americans today, which provides a good middle-class income, will Americans tire of and refuse to do tomorrow?

The Big 4 are hiring Indian accountants as fast as they pass the exam.

Anonymous BillB July 18, 2014 9:54 AM  

The best coders and SW developers I ever knew were NOT CS degreed folks. On the engineering side, many of the best were either ET or EE. Why doesn't MS take his money and pay the best and brightest of ours through some degree program.

Gates, the dropout, and the stretcher of truths, hasn't a clue. Recall he didn't develop anything. DOS came from Seattle Computer. Windows is an offshoot of DR's GEM. Windows for Workgroups and the networking came from a product known as Web for Windows.

Anonymous hygate July 18, 2014 9:54 AM  

""The thing that limits us is hiring the world's best engineers," he says, noting that 60 percent of the students at the top U.S. computer-science departments are foreign-born.

Why is that? Did the school system dumb down americans too much?"

The really smart kids aren't going into STEM majors because they can see there is no real money in it. They can see that all of those jobs are being outsourced or filled with indentured servants, I mean H1B visa holders.

And I have worked with many Indians and while some are good, many are either unwilling or unable to do anything without detailed instructions. Indepedent thinking, problem solving, and initiative is not in their cultural make-up.

Anonymous Zolo July 18, 2014 9:59 AM  

"The Big 4 are hiring Indian accountants as fast as they pass the exam."
Why not just give them the answer beforehand?

A coworker at my old job went home to India for two weeks, and came back with a SharePoint admin certification. She had never done anything with SP previously and had no knowledge of it that anyone could tell. Yet, there she was, fully certified.

Blogger CarpeOro July 18, 2014 10:08 AM  

"A coworker at my old job went home to India for two weeks, and came back with a SharePoint admin certification. She had never done anything with SP previously and had no knowledge of it that anyone could tell. Yet, there she was, fully certified."

HR departments are horrible at sifting the real from the paper knowledge. I would suspect many competent people that hadn't taken the certification tests are passed over for ones that have no experience beyond the test. There are exam crams for everything under the sun. They do not impart understanding.

Anonymous Michael July 18, 2014 10:08 AM  

These billionaires' only allegiance is to their money. They're willing to sell American employees down the river and undermine our sovereignty just to pinch a few pennies. But hey, maybe if they're feeling generous they'll offer employees a few weeks w/ pay to train their illegal replacements before they get the axe.

The government will go to great lengths to ensure that a workforce with 50+ employees meets their "diversity" criteria, which is pure BS, all the while encouraging amnesty/open borders and rampant outsourcing. Add to that Obamacare which is designed to harm small business and cut even more jobs. Some employers are now hiring at minimum wage and then as soon as their employees become eligible for a raise, they cut them from the work force and hire cheap - a vicious cycle ensuring that sovereign Americans do not possess the necessary means for retirement.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 18, 2014 10:12 AM  

I don't see your point VD. Microsoft already hires lots of foreign labor as it stands. I spent weeks going through various Indians (the Asian kind) on support calls trying to figure out why Dynamics CRM 2011 Rollup 16 sucked. Eventually, our head of development (who previously help a job as a VP at Oracle) had to butt heads with the top brass at Microsoft to get it fixed (Rollup 18 should be good).

The point is, they are already hiring foreign labor. Also, the kind of people coming in from south of the border are basically the Hispanic equivalent of trailer trash. Nobody in a tech company would hire them except as a janitor.

Anonymous Michael July 18, 2014 10:20 AM  

swiftfoxmark2, it's common knowledge that tech companies have been outsourcing to foreigners for awhile now. The point is that the heads of these companies are now requesting that the US government make it easier for them to hire more foreigners domestically for cheaper labor, thus drastically reducing the number of sovereign Americans they have to pay w/ benefits. IOW, they're accelerating our country's destruction just to fatten their already bloated wallets. Think Monopoly.

Blogger alexamenos July 18, 2014 10:24 AM  

I don't see your point VD. Microsoft already hires lots of foreign labor as it stands.

For at least rhetorical purposes I like to remind people of Grapes of Wrath--The Joad family went west because they saw these help wanted fliers for farming out west. When they got to California they discovered that the labor market was absolutely flooded, but the farmers were still publishing fliers encouraging people to come to Cali.

It's a useful reference--old school democrats can't help but identify the big corporations as the bad guys and oh-so white Joads as the good guys.

Anyway, the big software guys are doing exactly the same thing as the big farmers were in Grapes of Wrath. They already have an oversupply of labor, and they're seeking more labor to further depress wages.

First they went for the blue collar guys, H1B is a big part of how they're coming for us STEM types.

Anonymous against H1Bs July 18, 2014 10:27 AM  

The certification exams are compromised overseas. 'Certified' foreign H1B workers also misrepresent their capabilities regularly. Corporations can pay now or pay more later many choose pay more later after bonus' are calculated on misleading results. What representatives are voting for H1B program increases? We need to vote them out.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 18, 2014 10:35 AM  

swiftfoxmark2, it's common knowledge that tech companies have been outsourcing to foreigners for awhile now. The point is that the heads of these companies are now requesting that the US government make it easier for them to hire more foreigners domestically for cheaper labor, thus drastically reducing the number of sovereign Americans they have to pay w/ benefits. IOW, they're accelerating our country's destruction just to fatten their already bloated wallets. Think Monopoly.

That's a short-sighted view. Fattening their wallets? The caliber of STEM immigrants is well below the average STEM American. I have see only a handful who are actually capable of real software development out of the dozens I've worked with.

The thing is, this isn't a factory assembly line. Skilled white collar work depends on a select few skilled workers to make the product. I don't think the owners are that short-sighted.

But I could be wrong. Perhaps this is a way they can get their skilled workers to take lower pay. Unfortunately, it won't work because there are plenty of tech companies who will hire good people for the right price.

Forget selling out the citizenry. If VD's assertion is true, then they are setting up their companies to fail big time.

Blogger alexamenos July 18, 2014 10:40 AM  

But I could be wrong. Perhaps this is a way they can get their skilled workers to take lower pay. Unfortunately, it won't work because there are plenty of tech companies who will hire good people for the right price.

Forget selling out the citizenry. If VD's assertion is true, then they are setting up their companies to fail big time.


It occurs to me that these billionaires may know a thing or two about making a buck.

OpenID cailcorishev July 18, 2014 10:48 AM  

Some of the smart guys at these companies may also see the writing on the wall and realize that Americans are slowly, but surely, turning against mass immigration. So they need to get as many cheap foreign workers into the country as possible NOW, and push the laws and limits as far as possible NOW, before things start moving the other direction.

Anonymous Banjo July 18, 2014 10:50 AM  

"And I have worked with many Indians and while some are good, many are either unwilling or unable to do anything without detailed instructions. Indepedent thinking, problem solving, and initiative is not in their cultural make-up."

This. A thousand times this. The stereotype is the brilliant Indian engineer. Perhaps true at one time, but absolutely is NOT the case now.

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia July 18, 2014 11:00 AM  

I agree wholeheartedly with you Tom. I'm almost 50 and an evil white male. I work for a large semiconductor manufacturer and have noticed that they seem to be trying to solve Indian unemployment single handedly. Some of the hires are decent but most are arrogant pricks who seem to think the caste system is here in the US.
I also plan on going Galt and drop out of the bullshit corporate amerika system. I'd prefer to leave the US but won't initially because of immediate family. I'd much rather be free and make less than a wage slave.
The US is dead. Mass turd world immigration and political graft killed it. Hopefully when the system collapses a resemblance of freedom can return but I think it'll be ugly until then.

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 18, 2014 11:04 AM  

@ Tom -
I love your reference to Idiocracy with D'won and Rico. Listen to these 3 names that come from an IT project:
Shithead Johnson, Lemonjello and Orangejello Lopez. Yeah, that's pronounced "Shi-theed" Johnson you racist! :-)
The other two names come from the boxes of lemon and orange jello, the kind you eat. Yep. True story from the PM who ran that project.

From personal experience, I worked with some Indians on our QA team. The lived 4 to an apartment and either shared a car or walked, yes walked, to work. I gave one of them a ride home on a very cold night. I'm certain the company wasn't saving money on their salaries. :-\

My suggested answer: Since the U.S. Congress has proven they will not do anything, start revoking corporate charters at the State level. If enough states did this perhaps corporations wouldn't feel so brazen to act with impunity.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 11:04 AM  

the problem with the MSFT layoffs in relation to the rest of the post is that the majority of them are in the Nokia division.

Nokia being a former Finnish multi-national that got bought out by MSFT.

so, one can expect that many of the Nokia layoffs are going to be ex-US ... meaning that those newly unemployed tech workers are going to be outside the US.

the Gates statement could simply be viewed as an attempt to get H1-B visas for the people they are planning to layoff over the next year so MSFT can bring them into the States where MSFT needs them.


bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[ wipes tear from eye ]

OpenID cailcorishev July 18, 2014 11:04 AM  

The thing is, this isn't a factory assembly line.

Not all of it is, but some is, and companies like Microsoft want to make it so as much as possible. That's why there was so much buzz about object-oriented programming: by breaking a program up into small objects, each of which only needed to do one simple task without knowing anything about the rest of the program, you could assign different objects to different programmers. Since each object would be simple, the programmers wouldn't need to be particularly talented or coordinated with each other, and if programmer #9564 leaves, you just pass the next object on to programmer #9565. You still need a few geniuses who understand the whole thing to break it up into objects and put them all together, but most of the work can be done by grunts (in theory).

This isn't an attempt to start a paradigm war; OOP is a perfectly good paradigm for some types of programs. But the huge amount of buzz it got from corporations, and the way Java was treated as the Holy Grail, came largely from this idea that it could turn programming into a factory line.

Blogger Chiva July 18, 2014 11:05 AM  

The bottom line of all this is you get what you pay for. I have worked in two companies that have experimented with hiring H1B workers, or contract development teams from China/India. In each instance the products were very late or canceled.
What both companies have learned is that software development is much more knowledge based than resource based.

Currently in Silicon Valley companies (especially start-ups) are becoming desperate for qualified software developers. Upper management believes there are not enough software engineers. In reality there are enough engineers, but not enough engineers with the specific knowledge for each position. That is the crux of the problem.

These H1B supporters are trying to address what they see as a shortage of engineers. They are missing the real issue. The shortage is there are not enough engineers with the needed domain knowledge. How this can be addressed is the real problem.

Anonymous Quartermain July 18, 2014 11:14 AM  

"So, wait: Bill Gates is complaining there aren't ENOUGH trained computer programmers as he simultaneously dumps thousands of them into the unemployment line? Is he insane?"


No, psychopathy is a personality disorder not a mental illness.

Anonymous harry12 July 18, 2014 11:17 AM  

swiftfoxmark2 July 18, 2014 10:12 AM
[snip}
The point is, they are already hiring foreign labor. Also, the kind of people coming in from south of the border are basically the Hispanic equivalent of trailer trash. Nobody in a tech company would hire them except as a janitor.

.
But if they poop in the stairwell, are they RERALLY doing jobs Americans won't do?
.

Anonymous harry12 July 18, 2014 11:23 AM  

...REALLY...
( need moar coffee!)

OpenID mattse001 July 18, 2014 11:27 AM  

Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama (R) has questioned the need for H1-B visas, citing studies and unemployment figures that say the U.S. has a surplus of STEM graduates.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/07/07/sen_sessions_conference_call_how_h-1b_guest_worker_visas_are_used_to_replace_american_workers.html

OpenID cailcorishev July 18, 2014 11:31 AM  

The stereotype is the brilliant Indian engineer.

People outside the industry may actually believe this. But anyone inside the industry who pushes it is a liar.

Obviously, in a country the size of India, there are some brilliant people, and some of them may learn to program. There's nothing stopping them from getting online and offering their services to American companies that need programming done. That can be done (and is being done) without any change to the laws, any need for H1-Bs, any need for expanded visa numbers. If you want to hire one, check out the freelance programming sites; they're full of them. You just have to sort out the brilliant ones from the....not.

That's not what this is about. Whether you're talking about Mexican farm workers or Indian programmers, it's about:

1) Bringing in large numbers of cheap low-level workers.
2) Letting the taxpayers support them as much as possible (training for the programmers, welfare for the laborers).
3) Locking them into indentured servitude so they can't switch to the competition for a better wage.
4) Using their low wages to bring down wages all the way up the chain.

Many people don't seem to understand how #4 works; they don't see why paying less to the guy who says "You want fries with that?" brings down the manager's salary too. But it does over time, because there's overlap at the margins between jobs. Say the best programmer in the world has a value of 100, and the worst, one-week-of-training coder has a value of 1. Now, obviously #1 is no threat to take #100's job and do it for #1 pay. But #1 might be able to do #3's job -- maybe not as well, but well enough that no one dies and no managers get fired -- so now #3 has to work for #1 pay or be replaced. So maybe #3 can do #6's job -- again, not as well, but well enough to get by -- so now #6 is working for #3 pay. And on up the chain, until #100 is working for #87 pay, whether he knows it or not. Lowering the bottom wage lowers all wages -- except for the executives who skim off the profits.

That's good in theory, because it should make the company more efficient, bring down prices, reduce everyone's cost of living, and make everyone's life better. When it happens because workers really do get better or technology increases efficiency, maybe that's true. But when it's caused artificially by replacing native workers with cheaper outsiders, it's not so true, because the natives still have to be fed.

Anonymous A Visitor July 18, 2014 11:31 AM  

The Microsoft chairman says there is a deficit of Americans with computer-science degrees, and he wants the government to make it easier for Microsoft to hire foreign-born workers.

What a lie! I am sick and tired of seeing foreigners taker our jobs.

I would suspect many competent people that hadn't taken the certification tests are passed over for ones that have no experience beyond the test. One thing I've learned is that just because somebody is certified doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

'Certified' foreign H1B workers also misrepresent their capabilities regularly. Does not surprise me in the least. I had a Turkish lab mate for physics. He evidentially didn't know what he was doing/was lazy because he just wanted to cheat off his buddy from last semester who had turned in everything.

Some of the smart guys at these companies may also see the writing on the wall and realize that Americans are slowly, but surely, turning against mass immigration. One can hope.

OOP is a perfectly good paradigm for some types of programs. But the huge amount of buzz it got from corporations, and the way Java was treated as the Holy Grail I taught myself to program in Java in the sixth grade. I remember being blown away with the idea of the JVM preventing viruses from running. Yeah, that worked out well (sarc).

The really smart kids aren't going into STEM majors because they can see there is no real money in it. A buddy of mine is an electrical engineer and makes $85k/year. He's yet to reach that point of downtime between jobs (aka being laid off).

I started off in engineering in undergrad and switched majors. I've decided if I can't find a job in what I studied by year's end, I'm heading back. I've already talked to my university and everything. We'll see where this goes.

At this point, the way I see it, I'd be doing the country a favor. Jobs Americans won't do my ass!

My plan is thus: make some money, in what I trained in or engineering, buy some land, grow some subsistence farming, marry (if I find a decent woman), have kids.

Anonymous Copperhead Joe July 18, 2014 11:48 AM  

I'm working on a consulting project for an engineering company with about 150 employees (RF engineering, clients are major cellular carriers). They replaced me with an H1B Indian 3 months ago, on basically a one man project that had a healthy profit margin, providing build documents to a client for new cell sites and modifications. They found something else for me to do while this guy took over, but after two months the client threatened to not renew the contract due to the many problems with quality of documents, missed deadlines, language barrier, etc. I am back to doing what I was doing now, and the guy is back in another state, likely looking for another sucker company.
I mention this anecdote because it has all the elements discussed - he lived in an apartment with 5 other Indians, took public transportation to work. I saw his resume, and the exaggeration would be funny if not for the damage he caused to the relations between my company and the client, and almost taking my job. He claimed comptetence with two software programs essential to the job; one he had clearly never used, and one he knew how to use at only a very superficial level, i.e., uploading diagrams to a database, where his job was to *create* the diagrams as an engineer. I know this because I trained him. He showed up for the first day of work without a pen, notebook, or even a piece of paper to take notes.
I am not familiar with the H1B rules, but I know the VP who hired this guy, and he is not a bleeding heart multiculturalist. He did this because of some kind of pressure.

Blogger James Dixon July 18, 2014 11:58 AM  

> Since the U.S. Congress has proven they will not do anything, start revoking corporate charters at the State level.

Bingo. We have a winner.

Blogger Chris Ritchie July 18, 2014 12:15 PM  

Copperhead Joe just reminded me of another story.

I'm a PM in a development shop. Our lead software architect was convinced this Indian H1B was the right man for the job. He came in the first day and spent the whole day with the architect. We came into work the next day and the guy didn't show up. By lunchtime we were actually concerned for his safety. We called the recruiting firm: they couldn't find him. They called the extended stay hotel he was at (red flag there) and he had checked out. He left no forwarding number. His cell phone didn't work. He skipped town! Ha!

To this day we don't let the architect forget what a terrible judge of people he was with that guy.

As a friend in college used to say, "Why do we still reference stereotypes? Because they are GENERALLY TRUE!"

Blogger LP 999/Eliza July 18, 2014 12:17 PM  

Good, cut the jobs and take them where ever Gates wants.

Just like RG Steel.

Anonymous Michael Maier July 18, 2014 12:50 PM  

If these three scumbags were literally gutted in front of their corporate HQs by one of their laid-off folks, I'd really think I'd LOL.

Anonymous Y July 18, 2014 12:59 PM  

I post this for your educations. I really truly believe that 95% of you will support this program in 2016... but only if you can keep an open mind and let go of your hate and/or Bibles:

- "We believe that Wall Street needs stronger rules and tougher enforcement, and we're willing to fight for it."

- "We believe in science, and that means that we have a responsibility to protect this Earth."

- "We believe that the Internet shouldn't be rigged to benefit big corporations, and that means real net neutrality."

- "We believe that no one should work full-time and still live in poverty, and that means raising the minimum wage."

- "We believe that fast-food workers deserve a livable wage, and that means that when they take to the picket line, we are proud to fight alongside them."

- "We believe that students are entitled to get an education without being crushed by debt."

- "We believe that after a lifetime of work, people are entitled to retire with dignity, and that means protecting Social Security, Medicare, and pensions."

- "We believe—I can't believe I have to say this in 2014—we believe in equal pay for equal work."

- "We believe that equal means equal, and that's true in marriage, it's true in the workplace, it's true in all of America."

- "We believe that immigration has made this country strong and vibrant, and that means reform."

- "And we believe that corporations are not people, that women have a right to their bodies. We will overturn Hobby Lobby and we will fight for it. We will fight for it!"

And the main tenet of conservatives' philosophy, according to Warren? "I got mine. The rest of you are on your own."

Who said these WISE words? Find out here: http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/elizabeth-warren-s-11-commandments-of-progressivism-20140718

Anonymous A Visitor July 18, 2014 1:02 PM  

And Y is either horrible when it comes to speaking sarcastically or understands nothing of the Dreaded Ilk...or both.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 18, 2014 1:12 PM  

The stereotype is the brilliant Indian engineer. Perhaps true at one time, but absolutely is NOT the case now.

The first Indian engineers to come over were generally brilliant. Smart, self-starters, able to figure things out for themselves. But then, nobody greased the skids for them, they had to get here and find work on their own. The new batch? Everything's taken care of for them, they just have to go where they're told and nod yes.

Never forget two things about the Bell Curve. a) Every ethnic group has a right side of the Bell Curve, and b) the right side of the Bell Curve is small fraction of the total number.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 18, 2014 1:21 PM  

Actually the true best and brightest are setting up their own businesses (preferably location independent)

Yes. I see a lot of ruin in large US corps in the years ahead. But picking their carcasses clean can be a profitable venture. What's going on is sociopaths have wormed their way into management positions (it's a variation of Pournelle's Iron Law - any time the revenue stream of an outfit is sufficiently time-shifted from the actual productivity of the organization, the place is susceptible to being overrun by sociopaths).

Once in power, they still need to demonstrate some sort of effectiveness, but they have no real clue how to enhance the company's product offerings, so they generally go for cost cutting. Their cost cutting leaves the company with a serious deficit in capability, which eventually (usually after the sociopath has either moved on or covered his tracks) manifests as a threat to the company's revenue. At that point, they need some Pros from Dover to come in and fix it.

That would be your cue. An outside consultant can fix it without threatening the interior power structure. You're hired mercenaries, the expectation is you'll leave when the contract is over and not stick around posing a threat to anyone's job.

I would actually encourage smart, self-motivated people to go into STEM. The traditional job market will be terrible, yes, but the work will still need to get done, and there's going to be a decreasing number of people actually able to do it. Be one of them and you can do very well. Just don't expect to have an old-fashioned corporate job, you're going to need to be more of a freelancer.

Anonymous map July 18, 2014 1:24 PM  

Chiva,

There is no such thing as a shortage of engineers, or anything for that matter. It's simply a matter of paying out to get the necessary resources, even in specialized domains of engineering. If the company can't pay the premium to wean scarce resources away because it is unable to sell its output at a profit, then the company should not exist.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 1:34 PM  

Y July 18, 2014 12:59 PM
I post this for your educations.



you need an educations [ sic ]. the word you're looking for is 'edification'.


Y July 18, 2014 12:59 PM
"We believe in science, and that means that we have a responsibility to protect this Earth."


which is why a Christian Republican established the first National Parks on the entire planet?


Y July 18, 2014 12:59 PM
And the main tenet of conservatives' philosophy, according to Warren?


according to a liberal, feminist Democrat? uh huh.

you ever thought about asking a conservative what THEY thought conservative was?

Blogger RobertT July 18, 2014 1:40 PM  

This is a smart move. Every company becomes soft and bloated when times are easy, when there's never a struggle. And times have always been easy for Microsoft. They've had a virtual monopoly for their whole existence. As a result the culture has suffered and inefficiency has creeped in..Nadella must have been following the Brazilian trio who has turned around,Budweiser, Burger King and Heinz, among others, by following what appears to be the same tactics. If Microsoft is not gutted, their culture will never change; and if the culture doesn't change, they will not survive. Make no mistake, this is not a precursor to innovation, but to a more efficient Microsoft. They have to learn to compete without the monopoly.

Blogger RobertT July 18, 2014 1:46 PM  

But it turns out most of these cuts were to Nokia. Maybe this isn't such a smart move after all. Maybe Nadella should read my post, because if he doesn't do what I was applauding him for, he's going to manage Microsoft right into the toilet. In the meantime ... woe to Finland.

Blogger RobertT July 18, 2014 1:55 PM  

Innovation is overrated as a business success story. The companies who invented the personal computer didn't hold on to their advantage. The people who invented the cell phone didn't hold on to their advantage. The people who invented social media didn't hold on to their advantage. The companies who make the most of it are have the most efficient business processes and fabulous customer service. aka Amazon & Apple. Apple had some innovations a long time ago, but they're old and stale by now. The reason your customers sleep in the streets in front of their stores to get first crack at paying three times as much for their product is because of their business processes and fabulous customer service.

Anonymous CLK July 18, 2014 1:56 PM  

I am surprised you all don't realize that part of this horseshit regarding the poor public school K-12 is exactly for these reasons .. it set the stage for companies to bring in foreign engineers on H1B or to outsource and claim that they did it because there were no qualified US candidates. So when you slam the PS systems in the US,.. know that one of the outcomes is justification for corporations to outsource your job to a 3rd world country ..

You have to see the whole picture..

Anonymous CLK July 18, 2014 1:59 PM  

VD says "..It's not terribly difficult to understand why nations experiencing economic stress are so often inclined to resort to nationalizing corporations,"

Step 1 complete .. VD now is supporting socialist positions... who are you want what have you done with VD. :)



Blogger Chiva July 18, 2014 2:02 PM  

@map
I do not disagree with your observation.

Anonymous Banjo July 18, 2014 2:12 PM  

We came into work the next day and the guy didn't show up

Classic!

After getting burned, we stepped up our interview process and really try to dig in to how a person thinks and what they actually know. I recall 1 hour in (to what is normally 2-3 hours) we had an applicant say "I wish to discontinue". Basically, she wasn't showing us ANYTHING like the capabilities her resume suggested and she freaking knew it.

The interview was a lot like this: Consuela says "No" for about 30 seconds

Anonymous hygate July 18, 2014 2:22 PM  

"What both companies have learned is that software development is much more knowledge based than resource based."

The old saw is that adding additional programmers to a project is like trying to produce a baby in one month by assigining the task to nine women.

Blogger LibertyPortraits July 18, 2014 2:58 PM  

They should just offshore their companies like manufacturing did. Hire a bunch of cheap engineers and computer programmers to usher in their new golden age /sarcasm.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 3:06 PM  

so, i went up to Wausau to do some training and orientation back around ~2000.

one of the 'engineers' ( OSP telco engineers really aren't ) was a black african immigrant. the second morning of the meetings in the hotel, some cops walked into the room, arrested him, cuffed him and perp walked him out.

turns out, his soc sec # and identity was stolen and he was getting home mortgage and car loans off of some white guy's record in TX or something. never saw him again.

later i transferred to the Madison area office that he had been working out of and the scuttlebutt was that his work had been crap anyways? dunno, that's all hearsay.

Anonymous VD July 18, 2014 3:19 PM  

Step 1 complete .. VD now is supporting socialist positions... who are you want what have you done with VD. :)

Learn to read, cretin. The fact that I can understand something, even the fact that I anticipate something, does not mean that I support something.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 18, 2014 3:27 PM  

VD July 18, 2014 3:19 PM
Learn to read, cretin.



note the emoticon at the end of the post:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon

one might almost think CLK is using that in place of a [ /sarc ] tag ...

Anonymous Jack Amok July 18, 2014 4:05 PM  

The old saw is that adding additional programmers to a project is like trying to produce a baby in one month by assigining the task to nine women.

If all you'll hire are 40-year old bitter, childless spinsters, nine might not be enough even if you give them the full traditional 9 months.

Blogger James Dixon July 18, 2014 4:44 PM  

> The companies who invented the personal computer didn't hold on to their advantage.

I believe the first personal computers you could buy in a store were from Apple and Tandy (at about the same time). Apple at least seems to be holding their advantage fairly well.

Anonymous Tom July 18, 2014 6:24 PM  

Thanks for reminding me I have yet to switch from my preloaded windows to linux. MS only has business because they come preloaded on everything.

A question for you techheads - how long until we can print computers and phones?

A Q for the rest of you griping about MS- how many of you still use their products when there are ample free substitutes?

Anonymous Mike M. July 18, 2014 7:10 PM  

H1B visas should have to be bought by the employer. Say $1,000/month, with the funds used for scholarships in that field.

Having said that, calcorichev is right. This is also about driving the entire software pay scale down.

Blogger Jeff Burton July 18, 2014 7:43 PM  

The true stereotype of Indian engineers is that they exaggerate their credentials, and lie about everything else. Every one in the industry who works with them has this stereotype in their head. Brilliant? That's what naive outsiders think.

Blogger Akulkis July 19, 2014 2:26 AM  

The thing is, this isn't a factory assembly line. Skilled white collar work depends on a select few skilled workers to make the product. I don't think the owners are that short-sighted.

But I could be wrong. Perhaps this is a way they can get their skilled workers to take lower pay. Unfortunately, it won't work because there are plenty of tech companies who will hire good people for the right price.

Forget selling out the citizenry. If VD's assertion is true, then they are setting up their companies to fail big time.



Management schools teach that STEM people with "paper qualification X" are as interchangeable as assembly-line workers.
Then they psychotically play the opposite game ("we can't find qualified American C++ programmers!!!!11!!!!eleventy!!!!!") when it comes to trying to bring in H1Bs

Blogger Akulkis July 19, 2014 2:33 AM  

The best coders and SW developers I ever knew were NOT CS degreed folks. On the engineering side, many of the best were either ET or EE. Why doesn't MS take his money and pay the best and brightest of ours through some degree program.


This is because CS programs teach programming techniques ("Here is how to create and manipulate a doubly-linked list. Now... go write a program to do X using a doubly-linked list" [with absolutely no regard as to whether a doubly-linked list is an appropriate data structure for the problem).

In contrast, EE and EET programs teach problem analysis and thinking through how to design the best data structures and algorithms to solve the problem. ("Here's the a proble... and the performance requirements and memory constraints. We could try an array...but doesn't fulfill requirement A... or we could use a hash-table, but that doesn't fit within our memory constraints... ... A linked list fits in memory, but again, doesn't meet our performance requirements... but here's an idea... what if we take a linked list and put another set of linking pointers proceeding to the preceding list member).

This was my experience at Purdue, which literally created the FIRST Computer Science department in the world (1948). All of my CS classes were uniformly terrible, other than an assembly-language class (VAX-11 at the time) and a compiler-writing course. In contrast, ALL of my EE courses taught me useful things EVERY single lecture.

Anonymous Anonymous July 19, 2014 11:48 AM  

I see some of the comments are outright lame here, suggesting that Microsoft is trying to replace existing employees with cheap H1B employees.

For the record, I am a H1B employee working for Microsoft. I get paid more that the citizens.

In the 21st century knowledge is what matters. If your skills include the best/latest tech, you get the job and money. Microsoft has to shakeout the old tech folks, in order to hire new tech folks. That's it. If you don't have the best folks in a tech company, it cannot innovate. Do you think saving a few thousand dollars (by hiring cheap labor) will get MS to innovate to the next product? Nope. You need people with the right skills.

Anonymous A Visitor July 19, 2014 12:59 PM  

"This was my experience at Purdue, which literally created the FIRST Computer Science department in the world (1948). All of my CS classes were uniformly terrible, other than an assembly-language class (VAX-11 at the time) and a compiler-writing course. In contrast, ALL of my EE courses taught me useful things EVERY single lecture."

BTFU!!!!!!!!!!!! Please tell me for CS 156 or at least CS class you had Bill Crum? Did you ever see the video on DC++?

"For the record, I am a H1B employee working for Microsoft. I get paid more that the citizens." Why not, after a couple of years, go to the US Embassy in your home country and apply for an immigrant visa?

Anonymous CorkyAgain July 20, 2014 1:18 AM  

So, wait: Bill Gates is complaining there aren't ENOUGH trained computer programmers as he simultaneously dumps thousands of them into the unemployment line? Is he insane?

Microsoft, like any large corporation, has lots of middle managers and other non-productive staff. They can easily find 18,000 useless bodies without getting rid of a single programmer.

Anonymous Don July 20, 2014 12:17 PM  

Funny how none of TPTB are admitting this puts the lie to the need for any legal tech immigration. What would be funny is if the news media biz had the same kind of program for writers, editors, reporters, etc. plus let's make it a requirement to meet diversity quotas.

What what they say when their own jobs are on the line. Do the same for politicians. It's not like they have our interests anyway. Require diversity balloting and let illegals take their jobs. I bet you'd see a change in voting patterns and rhetoric.

Blogger Martina raj December 03, 2014 5:10 AM  

This nice and useful blog....Thanks for this post

Magento Web Design Company
Ecommerce Web Design Company
Magento Web Designing Company

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts