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Friday, July 04, 2014

Defending the kiddy fiddlers

As an explosion of historical child abuse cases are being revealed in Britain, from popular entertainers to Members of Parliament, it can be readily observed that the British elite's reaction to the exposure of the pedophiles in their midst was not dissimilar to the current non-reaction of the SFWA concerning the revelations concerning Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ed Kramer, and Samuel Delany.
His paedophile campaign ran into the buffers of derision from the press and hostility from fellow parliamentarians, some of whom denounced his use of parliamentary privilege to name Hayman and accused him of grandstanding.

It is hard to imagine today, as celebrities from that era are brought before the courts for historic sex offences, that this matter was treated so lightly by Parliament. Dickens believed this was because influential people were involved in the abuse and were determined to shut him up.

In reality, it stemmed more from a startling indifference to what was then called “kiddy fiddling”. It was as though because it had always gone on, it was not something to get too worked up about.

For his part, Dickens simply could not understand how an organisation such as PIE was allowed to exist.... Frustrated, Dickens brought a Bill before Parliament “to make it an offence to be a member of any organisation, association, society, religious sect, club or the like that holds meetings at which support is given to encourage, condone, corrupt or entice adults to have sexual relationships with children.”
Is it really that hard to imagine today? The British Attorney General's dismissal of Sir Peter Hayman's subscription to the Paedophile Information Exchange network is more than a little remniscent of the defenses various SFWA members have offered of SFWA Grand Master Samuel Delany's being a regular reader of the NAMBLA bulletin.

"Sir Peter Hayman had subscribed to PIE, that is not an offence and there is no evidence that he was ever involved in the management."

"I’ve seen no evidence (doesn’t mean it’s not out there; I’m not trying to be willfully ignorant here) that Delany’s position was anything other than intellectual.He was responding to the contents of their newsletter, which may have been interesting and/or thought-provoking intellectual discussion for all I know."

Despite reports that the SFF community is reeling, neither SFWA nor its president, Steven Gould, have publicly said anything despite being directly asked about the scandals. But attempting to sweep the whole problem of child abuse in SFWA under the carpet as nothing more than the accusations of a bitter ex-member is not going to work any better in the long term than the British attempt to dismiss child abuse by its entertainers, diplomats, and politicians as "the fantasies of a deluded man".

I suspect Jo Walton will eventually come to regret her repeated praise of Delany on Tor.com, just as Ann McCaffrey and Robert Sawyer likely came to regret their defenses of Ed Kramer in the official SFWA publications and Jim C. Hines and Tor.com itself have come to regret their past celebrations of Marion Zimmer Bradley.

"We didn't know," they cry, some honestly, some not. But it seems readily apparent that the only reason many of them did not know was because they were determined not to look for fire amidst all the smoke. For example, notice that the Toad of Tor is STILL trying to defend Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Just F-ing Keftastic @Keffy Jun 13
THERE ARE FUCKING COURT FUCKING DOCUMENTS. And you still got people waffling about WELL WE DON'T KNOOOW and making excuses based on "vibes."

tnielsenhayden @tnielsenhayden Jun 14
Pointing out that there remain areas of considerable uncertainty is not necessarily a defense of pedophilia.
Not necessarily, no. But remember, Teresa Nielsen Hayden is one of the very members who demanded an 80-page investigative report of my supposed racism on the basis of a single tweet. But when it comes to Marion Zimmer Bradley, there "remain areas of considerable uncertainty" and when it comes to SFWA Grand Master Samuel Delany, it would appear his constant dwelling on things such as "racist porn", "racial ephithets", "father/son homosexual incest starting very young" and "bestiality" "on almost every page" don't merit an investigation or anything except repeated public celebrations of the man.

Consistently looking the other way for decades, ignoring all the obvious signs, and then belatedly trying to hide behind "areas of considerable uncertainty" is, taken in sum, a de facto defense of the pedophiles in science fiction.

Labels:

39 Comments:

Anonymous H July 04, 2014 9:26 AM  

The Toad's response as well as some of those vague responses in general remind me of how feminists treat false rape accusations. For example, after the Duke Lacrosse case, there were still prominent feminists saying stuff like "We'll never know the details! It could have happened! Nothing is certain!"

Anonymous Anonymous July 04, 2014 9:38 AM  

The hypocrisy of the pink brigade is revolting. When the pedophilia is by anyone outside their camp, they revile that person, but when its by their own, they defend. Here is John Scalzi commenting on the Penn State/Jerry Sandusky scandal from a few years back:

After summarizing Ursala K. Le Guin's story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas," he writes: "At Pennsylvania State University, a grown man found a blameless child being put through hell. Other grown men learned of it. Each of them had to make their choice, and decide, fundamentally, whether the continuation of their utopia — or at very least the illusion of their utopia — was worth the pain and suffering of that one child. Through their actions, and their inactions, we know the choice they made." See http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/11/10/omelas-state-university/

Yea, and now we are learning of the choice that Scalzi and his ilk are making to preserve the illusion of their own SFWA utopia.

Anonymous TroperA July 04, 2014 9:50 AM  

Don't ya get it?

Anything the pinks like is good.
Anything the pinks hate is bad.

So says the great God of Secular Progressivism. If reality must warp and bend to make a previously denounced activity acceptable (or vice versa), then so be it!

Anonymous Godfrey July 04, 2014 9:57 AM  

What did you expect? The Left has no principles but vanity and self-indulgence.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow July 04, 2014 10:20 AM  

"In our own SFWA, a grown woman and her husband put many a blameless child being through hell. We grown men and women of the SFWA learned of it. Each of us had to make a choice, and decide, fundamentally, whether the continuation of our Sci-Fi utopia — or at very least the illusion of our utopia — was worth the pain and suffering of those children. Through our actions, and our inactions, the choice we in the SFWA made is obvious to this Court."

-- JS, closing statement, sentencing phase, the Pedophile Trials, National Action Special Court for Sexual Crimes, 201X

Anonymous JOTS July 04, 2014 10:29 AM  

Another interesting development is that we're seeing DV accusations against politicians

http://order-order.com/2014/07/03/report-another-tory-guilty-of-assaulting-ex-girlfriend/

Order-order is pretty much the premiere political site in the UK. 'Tory' = Conservative Party (alleged righties). Note the name of the reported tory for another aspect.

"
Surrey Herald & News are reporting that Asif Ayub, Tory councillor for Ashford East in Spelthorne, has been found guilty of five counts of assaulting his ex-girlfriend. Readers will remember Ayub as the Tory MP hopeful who described David Cameron as the “Messiah“ at party conference in 2012. What is it at the moment with Tories and violently assaulting their girlfriends?
"

---

I guess that we might see legal changes when the impact of allegations (true and false) start hitting the politicians. Legal ramifications are for little people who cares about them? But politicians! serious stuff.

Anonymous Daniel July 04, 2014 10:45 AM  

And when the first comment on a British pedophile article from an SFWA member (Will Shetterly) is about how an accused public entertainer very well could have just been tired from being on-stage or nervous about going on stage...you begin to realize that there is a decided culture within the SFWA of rushing to excuse molesters first, foremost and often.

Why does the SFWA leadership attack the "comfort culture" of their own conventions while covering up child molestation?

Anonymous VD July 04, 2014 10:51 AM  

an accused public entertainer very well could have just been tired from being on-stage or nervous about going on stage.

Make that CONVICTED public entertainer. "Rolf Harris has been sentenced to five years and nine months in jail by a London court for the 12 indecent assault charges on four girls."

Anonymous Harold Carper July 04, 2014 10:58 AM  

Looked up @lefty. Sheesh. You know it's bad when the out and out freaks are calling you out on your defense of some other sexual deviant.

Anonymous Harold Carper July 04, 2014 11:00 AM  

@kefty, not lefty.

Anonymous Michael of Charlotte July 04, 2014 11:23 AM  

It makes you wonder if they are importing Muslims to make child molestation ok.

Anonymous Bz July 04, 2014 11:27 AM  

"Yea, and now we are learning of the choice that Scalzi and his ilk are making to preserve the illusion of their own SFWA utopia."

Make that 'Science Fiction Writers of Omelas'.

Anonymous Lars Grobian July 04, 2014 11:31 AM  

"may have been interesting and/or thought-provoking intellectual discussion for all I know."

He's a lefty, and he naturally assumes that pedophiles, gathered for the purpose of pedophilia, are reasonably likely to discuss lefty intellectual subjects in a way he'd find stimulating.

Do you think he'd make that assumption about the Klan, or the like? Nope. Not Quite Our Type, Dear. But gay pedophiles, very much His Type.

Blogger Some dude July 04, 2014 11:31 AM  

Just F-ing Keftastic @Keffy Jun 13
THERE ARE FUCKING COURT FUCKING DOCUMENTS. And you still got people waffling about WELL WE DON'T KNOOOW and making excuses based on "vibes."

tnielsenhayden @tnielsenhayden Jun 14
Pointing out that there remain areas of considerable uncertainty is not necessarily a defense of pedophilia.


That's really sick.

I'll admit I've read of cases where men were railroaded by false accusations, so I'm not one to jump for a lynching on the basis of a single accusation. Wary, yes. Lynching, no.

But man ... there are limits. There's a cut off point where it is clear what is going on. In the case of this clown it seems clear even without the damn court case. Some people just need killing. Not that I'm advocating breaking the law mind you.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 04, 2014 11:37 AM  

Daniel July 04, 2014 10:45 AM
And when the first comment on a British pedophile article from an SFWA member (Will Shetterly)



'socialist Christian' Will Shetterly? the "youse guys don't know Christianity" Will Shetterly? social justice warrior Will Shetterly?

do please link this article.

Anonymous Shibes Meadow July 04, 2014 11:48 AM  

Bz July 04, 2014 11:27 AM wins thread

Anonymous Trimegistus July 04, 2014 11:55 AM  

Pedophilia is only bad when Catholic priests or Republicans do it.

Anonymous YIH July 04, 2014 11:56 AM  

The same thing could be said of the Catholic church scandals:
Denial: ''how could you say such a thing about Fr. McFeely?! He's a man of God! People love and support him''
Doubt: ''Doesn't it seem rather y'know, odd that Fr. McFeely seems to spend an inordinate amount of time alone with (a) certain altar boy(s)?''
Naivete: ''Isn't it just wonderful that Fr. McFeely cares so much about children that he spends so much time with them?''
Indifference: ''Yeah, it's kind of an open secret that Fr. McFeely might be doing some rather, um, unusual things with (a) certain altar boy(s)...''
''Passing the trash'': [Bishop]: ''Look Fr. McFeely, I've gotten more than a few complaints about rather inappropriate behavior on your part, so what I suggest is to step down here and I'll strongly recommend you for a parish elsewhere'' [rinse and repeat as necessary].
''Blame the victim'': Denial plus turning the accusation back on the accuser, or just plain attacking the accuser.
It won't surprise me at all that a ''why are you attacking Catholicism?'', because it's the best-known example of 'sweeping the dirt under the rug' until the rug became so lumpy that it couldn't be ignored anymore. At that point the taint doesn't just cover 'the bad apple' but it spreads to all levels.
Look at the Penn State scandal.
Could this damage the fandoms (SF/F, comics, horror, anime, ect? Sure, not only would 'the tabloids' make it a mudbath all around, but the main IRL promotion is the 'cons', if the promoters start getting backlash ''well 'blasto-con', no surety bond/insurance, no booking dates'' (from the venue). The extra costs (and bad will) could well be the difference between viable and nonviable.
''Well John, since that scandal and drop in sales and the closing of some 'cons'...''

Anonymous Trimegistus July 04, 2014 11:59 AM  

By the way, ever since gay marriage was suddenly discovered as a Fundamental Human Right Liberals Always Supported, I've been asking what's next. I thought I had pegged polygamy as the obvious choice (lets them be "multicultural" and hook in some Muslim imams, appeals to chubby swingers, etc.). But now it really does seem as though kiddy sex is going to be their next milestone of social progress.

Anonymous kh123 July 04, 2014 12:10 PM  

Had it not been for the previous tweet witch hunt, they'd really be pulling off this whole plausible deniability thing, wouldn't they. All we need now are revelations that SFWA criteria for booking venues was stipulated number of hidden crawlspace dungeons accessible through toilet pullchains in both men's and women's restrooms.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 04, 2014 12:11 PM  

But remember, Teresa Nielsen Hayden is one of the very members who demanded an 80-page investigative report of my supposed racism on the basis of a single tweet

They would have so much more plausible deniability if they hadn't been so eager to kick you out. The Greeks would call this Nemisis, right?

As to Scalzi when he wrote: "At Pennsylvania State University, a grown man found a blameless child being put through hell. Other grown men learned of it. Each of them..."

Nothing to disagree with there. I suppose SFWA remains blameless because there are no "grown men" there. Not entirely sure there are women there either. Manatees, harpies, she-orcs, and gammaboys. Oh, and toads. Sorry, forgot toads. No wonder they celebrate bestiality.

Anonymous kh123 July 04, 2014 12:15 PM  

...They could even claim that it was simply so that authors could retreat from the stresses of having to perform in public. Nevermind the Greek frescoes or the "Unterweg fur Feuersturm" on the wall.

Anonymous Susan July 04, 2014 12:22 PM  

In various articles about the Brit aristocracy I have read over the years, an unspoken part of the boarding school curriculum for the kids attending, is buggery for everybody. When you grow up in that kind of atmosphere, you think it is a normal part of "what people do".
So the political elites, who for the most part came from this boarding school education, aren't going to understand or care about just how wrong kiddie fiddling is.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 04, 2014 12:39 PM  

In various articles about the Brit aristocracy I have read over the years, an unspoken part of the boarding school curriculum for the kids attending, is buggery for everybody.

Er, where have you been reading that?

Blogger Bogey July 04, 2014 1:00 PM  

I used to get entertainment out of the SFWA, I would even share some of the nonsense with friends, but things have turned really dark recently. Not so entertaining anymore.

Blogger Fnord Prefect July 04, 2014 1:27 PM  

Michael of Charlotte It makes you wonder if they are importing Muslims to make child molestation ok.

I'd always assumed they would be used to justify polygamy first but maybe a double-whammy is planned.

Blogger Fnord Prefect July 04, 2014 1:33 PM  

Jack Amok Er, where have you been reading that?

It's been a staple of British culture (comedy, literature et al.) for decades

Anonymous Jack Amok July 04, 2014 2:28 PM  

It's been a staple of British culture (comedy, literature et al.) for decades

You realize comedians aren't the same as historians, right? P.G. Wodehouse didn't include pedophilia, but he made a lot of fun of aristocrats. It was fiction though (Hugh Laurie, who played Bertie Wooster in a great ITV series, said in an interview that he grew up reading Wodehouse and was disappointed to discover the world he wrote about never really existed).

Blogger rycamor July 04, 2014 3:01 PM  

Trimegistus July 04, 2014 11:59 AM

By the way, ever since gay marriage was suddenly discovered as a Fundamental Human Right Liberals Always Supported, I've been asking what's next. I thought I had pegged polygamy as the obvious choice (lets them be "multicultural" and hook in some Muslim imams, appeals to chubby swingers, etc.). But now it really does seem as though kiddy sex is going to be their next milestone of social progress.


Fnord Prefect July 04, 2014 1:27 PM

Michael of Charlotte It makes you wonder if they are importing Muslims to make child molestation ok.

I'd always assumed they would be used to justify polygamy first but maybe a double-whammy is planned.


I think they realize polygamy is a loaded cannon (or should that be canon?). I don't get why so many conservative thinkers see polygamy as part of a trend in acceptance of depravity (gay marriage->polygamy->bestiality->pedophilia). It does have negative implications for a long-term orderly society, but nothing to the degree of abomination caused by the others.

Leftists with any brains know that male polygamy has direct connections to traditional religious male-dominated society (I.E. the Old Testament). I suspect in the end they will easily accept bestiality and "consensual" pedophilia before accepting polygamy. They really don't like the idea of making patriarchs out of men. Note that of course they don't oppose the idea of men having an unofficial harem as is obvious in our society--as long as that is wrapped in the concept of "female sexual empowerment". They just hate the idea of the sacrament of marriage giving a man that sort of power.

Yes, I know that polyamory or polyandry can be brought in with polygamy, but again I think the left realize that will never amount to more than a minor freakshow, as men just aren't likely to sign up to such a thing.

... unless of course, they can come up with some rationale for men being forced by law to marry into such a deal. There's food for thought there.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 04, 2014 3:26 PM  

... unless of course, they can come up with some rationale for men being forced by law to marry into such a deal. There's food for thought there.

I doubt they'd go that route. Men are already disengaging from monogamous marriage and the progs aren't trying very hard to force them back into it. They're just trying to appropriate their resources instead. Marriage, in whatever form, is a means of exchanging male surplus productivity for female fertility. It's also a way to raise healthy kids, but that's not a priority for lefties, they only care about the surplus productivity. As long as that can be acquired by some other means, marriage isn't necessary for them, and I don't see them doing anything to bolster it.

Anonymous map July 04, 2014 3:51 PM  

rycamor,

"Yes, I know that polyamory or polyandry can be brought in with polygamy, but again I think the left realize that will never amount to more than a minor freakshow, as men just aren't likely to sign up to such a thing.

... unless of course, they can come up with some rationale for men being forced by law to marry into such a deal. There's food for thought there."

Men will be forced into it through the "no fault open marriage" which they need gays to spearhead in court.

Blogger Fnord Prefect July 04, 2014 4:26 PM  

@rycamor
The polygamy I imagine they would accept is five men or the kind of communal marriage that's a staple of pink SF (think X-rated Friends). I see accepting the 'traditional' form as a Trojan horse that will be financially onerous for most men to adopt even if its allowed...

Blogger Quadko July 04, 2014 5:59 PM  

This whole series of posts and the reaction of SFWA, the Brits, etc., reminds me of the Roman Polanski (cleaned up?) quote 'Everyone else fancies little girls too' in justification of his abusing actions. His supporters apparently agree. Same song, different verse. Hang them all. Protection of children is civilization and good, anything else is barbarism and evil, and civilization must protect itself.

Blogger rycamor July 04, 2014 7:03 PM  

Fnord Prefect July 04, 2014 4:26 PM

@rycamor
The polygamy I imagine they would accept is five men or the kind of communal marriage that's a staple of pink SF (think X-rated Friends). I see accepting the 'traditional' form as a Trojan horse that will be financially onerous for most men to adopt even if its allowed...


I'm sure that is the intent of some, but human nature just will not tend toward those things. Multiple men in marriage has been extremely rare in human history, even in pagan societies. Men would generally rather have no woman than have to share one with other men.

I think the more likely scenario is that the left wants to do away with the significance of marriage at all. They imagine once it becomes just some sort of abstract temporary agreement between some group of people, it will lose its traditional influence on culture. Then the State will act as the true father and patriarch of the children.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 04, 2014 8:17 PM  

Men would generally rather have no woman than have to share one with other men.

The only case where men will share a woman with other me is when their only obligation to her is a twenty dollar bill left on the night stand. And most men won't be particularly happy about that anyway.

Anonymous takin' a look July 04, 2014 10:59 PM  

Theresa Hayden, there is a special pit in hell for you. You cried and gnashed teeth over "badwords", "badthought", and "feelbad", none of which resulted in negative actions against the person who was the target of those in any way, shape or form, except MAYBE, people exercising their FREE right not to peruse or buy her works based on said incidents. Worst happens, she would have been flipping burgers, tearing out chicken guts or bottom of bottom, gone on welfare.

When it came to admitted rapists, court-documented and victim testimony, you say, "oh no, we MUST 'investigate further'. "My lips and teeth snarl and are bared.

Anonymous Daniel July 05, 2014 1:35 AM  

Just to be clear, the Toad of Tor cried and gnashed over the inaccurate naming of a self-admitted "full savage" erroneously as merely "half-savage." That doesn't even meet the minimum qualification of the plural "badwords."

Anonymous Rabbit July 05, 2014 3:14 AM  

Jack Amok wrote: **The only case where men will share a woman with other me is when their only obligation to her is a twenty dollar bill left on the night stand. And most men won't be particularly happy about that anyway.**

Umm, no. Polyandry has occured historically in extremely impoverished societies where most of the men are unable to earn, on their own, enough to financially support a wife.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit July 05, 2014 4:05 AM  

Once again using extreme outliers to try and prove your point. You are arguing that something that only occurs in cases of the most extreme poverty and requires a fallacious belief (that a child can have more than one father) is somehow the norm.

HINT: When the only support for your argument is that it happened once somewhere once upon a time you are probably NOT dealing with a universal principle (ask your teacher if you don't know what that means).

Oh, you forgot the animal species that do it too after all we're just animals too, aren't we?

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