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Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Sabotaging marriage

Male white knights and feminists should think twice before defending Spreadsheet Wife, as Troy Francis observes at The Return of Kings that her actions are nothing less than a public advertisement for anti-marriage:
The best creative agency in the world would have been hard-pressed to come up with a more effective advertisement against marriage. Rollo points out that getting hitched is no insulation from the sexual marketplace, and it is a common trope that men need to game their wives. But that’s a hell of a lot of work, and with the sexual rewards potentially so low, and with women being a depreciating asset over time, many guys could be forgiven for choosing not to bother and to remain single, learn game and spin plates instead.
You can read my take on it at Alpha Game:
The first thing is that this spreadsheet didn't come out of the blue. It is almost surely a quintessential male response to a very typical female tactic: the demand for proof. Women often try to put men in a false "heads I win, tails you lose" position, in which they demand proof of the assertion, but if called on this demand, then try to argue that the anticipation of the need for proof somehow disqualifies its relevance. That is exactly what the wife is attempting to do here. She's trying to use that the fact he made the spreadsheet and sent it to her on the road to retroactively justify her previous actions.
The worst response is arguably that of self-admitted white knight Dave Swindle, who is adroitly taken apart by Dr. Helen:
This response is classic white knighting where the spreadsheet guy is a failure and this is why he can’t get sex. Note the word loser that is used in Dave’s first paragraph. Of course it’s important to white knight and call the guy a loser because that means that a man that doesn’t get upset if his wife won’t have sex with him is a winner! A convenient excuse to tell oneself on yet another sexless night. And of course, as Dave notes, it is always up to the man to take responsibility for any problems in the couple’s sex life. Wife doesn’t put out? It’s your fault, man. You lack self-control.
The similarity between the normal female response and the gamma male's does border on the creepy at times, doesn't it? Anyhow, this should demonstrate how the instinctive and/or solipsistic reflex to defend Team Woman at all costs is observably detrimental to female interests in the long-term.

Labels:

170 Comments:

Blogger Nate July 23, 2014 9:14 AM  

I don't think we're paying enough attention to the fact that several times a week this woman works out and then goes to bed without showering.

That's just nasty.

Blogger JACIII July 23, 2014 9:18 AM  

The classic, F - "All you want me for is sex!"
M - "What else you got?"

Applies here.

One wonders what value the sisterboys believe wives bring to the partnership.

Blogger Matamoros July 23, 2014 9:20 AM  

Men need to start with the premise, “what is marriage”, and go from there. Too many men think it is living with a woman. It is not. It is the woman living with the man. It is a mutual contract with mutual responsibilities - including sex-on-demand. It is to beget and raise children, for mutual pleasure, to assist each other, to work out their salvation, and a framework within which to live - the male under the rule of God, the woman under the rule of man.

As I said at Alpha Game: “You should always marry a young girl. They are more malleable and trainable. A woman should be trained using the same techniques used to train a puppy into proper behavior. For sexual access she must be taught the Bible and Christian teaching about the marriage debt, that it is not permissible to deny sex, and she is to always be ready.

Believe me, if you aren't training her - she is training you."

Anonymous dh July 23, 2014 9:36 AM  

Nate--

Works out is quite obviously a lie. What that means is she goes and f%$ks the alpha guy at the gym showers and towels off there, and comes home sore and tired and doesn't want him to smell the strange.

This is basically it. The guy has sex 3 or 4 times a month. An average looking man with no compunction about it can easily get his rocks off 4 times a month with anonymous or casual hookups.

And failing that, you can deal with all the pluses of a women who works (barf), travels, and "works out" and get 3-4 beg lays a month or you can just turn to internet porn, save your money, live a simpler more joyful life for 25 years, and still pickup a fertile wife in the 2nd half.

It's a no brainer for men. I look around at all the young women who are making excel spreadsheets, writing emails, and proofreading presentations who think they are important while their eggs die on the vine at the same rate and have a sad chuckle. In the end they're just rotting meat, like the rest of us, in a box. Their entire lifes' work will whither to electronic dust with some big hard drive crash or corporate bankruptcy. Every proposal, every slide show, every report all wasted while they forgo a family or worse raise one by proxy at a child-stasis center. I can't help but notice that pop-culture has accelerated the wishful thinking machine - cranking out more rom-com movies about the wild guy settling down, more television plots about doofus dads providing the punchline to the sassy wife, and a few that take the abject ruin of our culture and try to make it funny and punchy (Two Broke Girls, Moms - looking at you).

About 3 months ago I was looking to hire a part-time employee to do sort of on call scutt work. Filing, scanning old paper documents, shredding, light organizing, proofread my blogposts, read things I write, etc. A great job for a recent widow, or a partially disabled person, high functioning austic, etc. I had a hundred applications from young pretty things happy to get $15/hour and no benefits. All college educated, all under 30. I interviewed the best of the bunch and ended up hiring a part-time deacon from our parish. All of those women who in past times would be doing honest work as a secretary, clerk, teacher, nurse or vet while preparing to start a family who are now wasting away, doing nothing at all.

All things return to dust. Even feminists. All that's left when we go are our progeny.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia July 23, 2014 9:37 AM  

Believe me, if you aren't training her - she is training you.

Aye.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian, King of Aquilonia July 23, 2014 9:40 AM  

The name Swindle is spot on.

Swindle, ha!

Anonymous PA July 23, 2014 9:43 AM  

The Team Woman responses are rooted in the "be attractive; don't be unattractive" logic that places the burden of relationship success entirely on the man.

This logic assumes limited or nonexistent agency on the wife's part. After all, if she had agency, half of the burden would have been hers: she could have been introspective about her lack of attraction to her husband and taken corrective action toward helping him actore attractively.

But she didn't, and wasn't expected to. "Here we are now, entertain us."

And I'm fine with that, with men having to be fully responsible for the success of their marriage. That is, after all, a sex-realist position.

Except for one thing: if women have no responsibilities, then they shouldnt have any corresponding rights.

Anonymous NateM July 23, 2014 9:48 AM  

"It is almost surely a quintessential male response to a very typical female tactic: the demand for proof. "

Women? Nahhh..

Whitney Hoston Show me the receipts: http://youtu.be/AdyaLWMt6qA

Anonymous Heh July 23, 2014 9:50 AM  

"I don't think we're paying enough attention to the fact that several times a week this woman works out and then goes to bed without showering."

It was a typical weak-ass female "workout" in which she didn't even break a sweat.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 9:58 AM  

the spreadsheet disappoints me.

where is the ever popular "i just gave birth after 24 hours of labor and have a prolapsed uterus" excuse?

i mean, clearly, it's the husband's fault for not caring about his wife's concerns ....

OpenID rufusdog July 23, 2014 10:00 AM  

Man do I not get this “Game” stuff. My wife never deigns me sex. There is nothing wrong with marriage, you just have to marry the right girl who has her head screwed on straight, that and act like a man…how is acting like a man hard, for a man?

Always strikes me that “Game” is either for soulless dirt bags who think spreading herpes should be their life’s work or pussies who need someone to explain to them how to act like a man.

I have a hard time believing this guy couldn’t have seen this coming before he married this girl.

Blogger David July 23, 2014 10:14 AM  

Foundations of problems like these:
1. Women working alongside men (and thus behaving like men)
2. The libido-killing oral contraceptive.

Blogger David July 23, 2014 10:16 AM  

"I have a hard time believing this guy couldn’t have seen this coming before he married this girl."

Exactly. They clearly did not have a meeting of the minds before their nuptials.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 23, 2014 10:20 AM  

What this woman fails to understand is that a successful and happy marriage is measured by the frequency of sex.

She's in denial about the state of her marriage, brought about by her refusal to submit to her husband. Since she has declared that she is the head of the marriage, the husband has basically thrown it back in her face, saying that this is a problem and you have to fix it.

And so she does what is typically female in this situation: blame the messenger for the problem rather than analyze the message.

Anonymous Roll her in some flour.... July 23, 2014 10:23 AM  

"the fact that several times a week this woman works out and then goes to bed without showering"

Perhaps after her "work out" there might be a wet spot somewhere ;)

Anonymous Northern Refugee July 23, 2014 10:23 AM  

I can't tell you how many 30ish women with degrees I know who are working meaningless, office drone temp jobs. They are all miserable, and they all they all expect some man to provide them with happiness and fulfillment on demand. Sad, really. The smarter ones are starting to realize that they are a rapidly depreciating asset, and that they can't have it all.

Blogger David July 23, 2014 10:24 AM  

Marriages come in two favors; partnership and hierarchy. In the latter, one dominates the other and everything in the marriage is a contest with a winner and a loser. (Not my idea of fun, given my 32 years of happy, successful union/marriage.)

Today's pop culture encourages women to seek dominance. Marrying one of these bitches is a massive mistake, because she's already displayed evidence that she's a herd animal, unable to discern for herself (or with help) how to live.

Lots of visible tattoos sends the same signal.

Anonymous dh July 23, 2014 10:48 AM  

Northern Refugee-- there is NO PLACE IN SOCEITY for men who point this out to women. Wow. Just wow.

Blogger Tom July 23, 2014 10:58 AM  

The Christians among us are called to love our wives if we have them, "as Christ loved the Church."

The hierarchy of Christian marriage is supposed to be based on the model of Christ's relationship with us. How did He treat us?

* Walked around for three years with us while on the Earth, teaching us by stories and example.
* Touched us when we were leprous and our skin was falling off so He could heal us.
* Threw a towel around Himself and got dirty washing feet when no one else would because it needed to be done.
* Asked us for help, but forgave us when we failed Him in His hour of need.
* Bled and died for our mistakes, for our shortcomings, for our failures, without complaint.

Does that sound like He trained us like puppies? Does that sound like He demanded His rights be satisfied?

There is one Game principle that He followed to a tee though. Jesus Christ held frame. And we are supposed to follow His lead there. Only, we aren't trying to hold our own little petty personal frame of reference. We should be trying to hold the same frame of reference that He did. God's frame of reference. Everything we do and say should be from that point of view.

Boy, do I feel ashamed writing that. I know how far short of that standard I fall. Sigh.

Anonymous Porky July 23, 2014 10:58 AM  

Impregnate immediately.

Blogger rumpole5 July 23, 2014 10:59 AM  

I am so glad to read Rufusdog's comment that there other non screwed up womem. I always thought that married folks met the needs and had each other's back. I am coming to the conclusion that there are a whole bunch of folks with "issues" and they are pretty good at hooking up with one another. Try emphasizing character instead of looks. Then you might get a spouse who realizes that having the other's back and servicing basic needs is the essence of a marriage. And I'm not white knighting spreadsheet wife. She is an idiot. If she had any brains she would do her own spread on the sheet and hump hubby till he couldn't take any more - that would take about 15 or 30 minutes out of her day. Problem solved. Who hatched these harpies?

Anonymous Harsh July 23, 2014 10:59 AM  

Always strikes me that “Game” is either for soulless dirt bags who think spreading herpes should be their life’s work or pussies who need someone to explain to them how to act like a man.

Which is exactly why game is necessary. Too many men have fallen lock, stock, and barrel for the tenants of the feminist imperative and need something to break them out of it.

Blogger Doom July 23, 2014 11:04 AM  

A pox on both their houses. If he can't get ass, it's his problem. If she can't handle the truth, it puts her exactly where I consider women who don't have a man who can handle them. Drama queens, both of them. And sexless. Fuck em' both.

Heh! Actually, it sounds like that is exactly what they both need.

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 11:12 AM  

Always strikes me that “Game” is either for soulless dirt bags who think spreading herpes should be their life’s work or pussies who need someone to explain to them how to act like a man.

That is because you are narcissistic and lack both empathy and observational skills. If you were paying any attention at all, you would realize that not all marriages are exactly like yours.

Blogger CM July 23, 2014 11:19 AM  

She is an idiot. If she had any brains she would do her own spread on the sheet and hump hubby till he couldn't take any more - that would take about 15 or 30 minutes out of her day. Problem solved. Who hatched these harpies?

There was one Sunday afternoon several years ago where I was super tired. I think it had been a while since we'd had sex and he was especially gropey that day. I didn't really think anything of it but being exhausted, I put our toddler down for a nap and tried to take one myself. 10 minutes later, couldn't sleep and found the hub sitting down to watch porn.

It was a first for both of us in our marriage - I didn't think it would hurt so much. I turned off his computer, took my shirt off, grabbed his hand and led him back to bed. Think we both got about an hour long nap afterwards (our baby took LONG naps :p).

If my husband did a spreadsheet like that, I'd be angry at him, but I'd mostly be ashamed of myself. I wonder how much of that woman posting it all over was her attempt to look for some one to assuage her guilt?

And seriously, WHY is she publishing the no shower thing???

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 11:21 AM  

That is because you are narcissistic and lack both empathy and observational skills.

That might be the reason for "My wife never deigns me sex." and "how is acting like a man hard, for a man?"

Anonymous White guy in Africa July 23, 2014 11:24 AM  

And I'm just sitting here, remembering how my wife said to me this weekend "Sometimes you make me so angry, other times I just want to hug you and sometimes I just want to fuck you til your ears fall off".

Anonymous Michael Maier July 23, 2014 11:31 AM  

"sometimes I just want to fuck you til your ears fall off"."

I'm not sure but I think she'd be doing SOMETHING wrong...

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 11:38 AM  

I turned off his computer, took my shirt off, grabbed his hand and led him back to bed. Think we both got about an hour long nap afterwards

Smart woman. That's what you call "addressing the problem". I've never understood the reaction of women to male behavior indicative of insufficient sex: "that upsets me, so I'm going to make the problem even WORSE!"

Yeah, that'll really show him.

Anonymous PA July 23, 2014 11:40 AM  

Men who write things to the effect of "I don't get the whole Game thing, my wife is a nympho for me" are feigning ignorance primarily to boast.

It's like some rich old neocon prick at National Review who started his article with "I just don't get the whole anti-immigration thing." Yeah, screw you.

Back to tough guy poseurs who pretend to not understand Game: hey, if your son asked you for advice with girls, would you give him the same obtuse bullshit?

Anonymous lozozlo July 23, 2014 11:42 AM  

@dh

absolutely beautiful post there, bro! (9:36 am post)

Anonymous PA July 23, 2014 11:42 AM  

"sometimes I just want to fuck you til your ears fall off"

Maybe she didn't originally say this in English. The 'ears falling off' metaphor works in this context in Slavic languages.

Anonymous Carlotta July 23, 2014 11:52 AM  

Mom gave me one bit of advice when I got married. God help her, she could barely get it out and was bright red as she said it.
" If he is acting poorly, or out of sorts...or even angry and you have fed him.....pull his pants down."

Great job CM. Just really smart and choosing to meet his needs instead of losingit. It is hard being exhausted, you made the right investment.

Anonymous Don July 23, 2014 11:53 AM  

Maybe she didn't originally say this in English. The 'ears falling off' metaphor works in this context in Slavic languages.

No wonder Russian birth rates are falling. Hint: You don't use your ears except as a place to put her heels.

Blogger IM2L844 July 23, 2014 11:55 AM  

You can cut me off, bitch, but only from one source.

Anonymous GracieLou July 23, 2014 11:56 AM  

Thank god! I've been waiting hours to hear something not stupid about the spreadsheet. For one thing, husband and wife is not a "friend" relationship. It is not a business relationship. It is not a mutually compatible interests relationship. By definition it involves sex. This whole issue with the spreadsheet--you hear people saying the husband's idea of "sexual entitlement" is ridiculous--NO IT'S NOT! It is not! Marriage is different from every other relationship BECAUSE it involves sex! A hundred years ago people would have understood this. I don't think people know what marriage is anymore. It's outrageous. In reference to this, I've asked husband #2 to please never refer to me as his "best friend." I spent a long time in a "platonic" marriage with husband #1. Which is why there is now a husband #2.

Spreadsheet's pain, lord if I could have worked Excel I would have made one. People living in Cloud Cuckoo Land don't understand the power of denial in a bad marriage. "Mature Dialogue" is for normal people. It doesn't work on narcissists and borderline Aspergers who cringe from physical contact. For them you need documentation if only to reassure yourself you aren't crazy.

Real life experience. Repeat this six times per year over a nineteen year period:
You try to have a normal sex life but that means literally dragging the spouse through the motions. Eventually this kills you inside. Special mention should be made that for a woman no amount of fitness or grooming can make her feel attractive if her husband won't have sex with her. I learned this through bitter experience. You communicate the problem maturely (per dogma) to the spouse. The spouse denies there is a problem, although logically if one person in a relationship says there is a problem that means there is a problem. At any rate nothing gets solved, but you do get the pity/duty f+&k which is almost worse than nothing at all. In fact it's so bad you promise yourself never to mention the "problem" again. You vow you will hold out next time because it's probably you forcing the issue that's causing the problem. Another dry spell goes on and on and on. It seems the spouse can hold out FOREVER, and you can feel the relationship dying. You try to be understanding. You try to see what you might be doing to contribute to the problem. You train for another half marathon and try not think about it. But now you notice that you notice other men, a lot, which makes you feel like a whore--you already feel ugly. So you COMMUNICATE (per dogma) which only leads to another pity/duty f+&k...

Anonymous stonercat July 23, 2014 12:15 PM  

dh - Did I read correctly you have a blog?

Blogger Brad Andrews July 23, 2014 12:39 PM  

> not all marriages are exactly like yours.

It also is not guaranteed to stay "good" forever. Most marriages have ups and downs, even the good ones. Maintaining your frame is a challenge, but necessary and worth the effort.

Blogger Chiva July 23, 2014 12:43 PM  

@GracieLou. Thank you for sharing. May you and husband #2 be "blessed" with a long and healthy relationship.

Blogger Daniel Horton July 23, 2014 12:48 PM  

Love the post as always, just a quick correction: the first quote you attribute to Roosh is from his compilation blog Return of Kings and the writer is Troy Francis.

Anonymous GracieLou July 23, 2014 12:54 PM  

Awww, thank you Chiva. I receive that gratefully.

Anonymous FP July 23, 2014 12:55 PM  

This Dave Swindle guy at PJM is a hoot. He's a "biblical feminist".

http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2014/07/22/white-knighting-much-dave/?show-at-comment=795814#comment-795814

"I find it so entertaining being told to "grow up" by an anonymous person calling himself "Bababaran." And for being attacked for stuff I never wrote. I made no claim to being a marriage expert. I just have a different value system than you do which causes me to interpret the world differently than you."

Anonymous FP July 23, 2014 12:57 PM  

Bah, here is the right link:

http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2014/07/22/white-knighting-much-dave/?show-at-comment=794617#comment-794617

"I'm neither a right-wing or a left-wing feminist. There's more to life than Left and Right. I'm a Biblical feminist. And it has nothing to do with either sex being better or worse than the other."

Anonymous Michael Maier July 23, 2014 1:02 PM  

RE: White Knight Swindler: I thought Vox blogged on the annoying Jew marriage "expert" Boteach before but nothing comes up.

Is there more than one annoyingly smug Rabbi peddling feminism on (what passes for) Conservative sites?

Blogger Random July 23, 2014 1:03 PM  

"Biblical Feminist"?

I would be fascinated to see the list of proof-texts supplied to justify this particular exegesis of Sacred Scripture.

Anonymous MrGreenMan July 23, 2014 1:05 PM  

I figured it was obvious to all involved - she's already cheated, cheating, and hoping to get some sort of behavioral excuse to divorce him, which she sought from the sisterhood on reddit.

@Tom
You are projecting, for Our Lord also:
1. Left a place where he was healing because the people kept coming, and he had used his powers to authenticate his authority, and so had to continue on his mission, lest he be overwhelmed with filling his days just doing healings and not achieve his goal.
2. Called his closest followers a number of sharp names to indicate that they were, in fact, stupid and helpless without the coming Holy Spirit. Called us, his future believers, dumb sheep who would need guidance and a shepherd. (I don't know about you, but, given that all I know about sheeps is - sheeps is dumb - I don't know that he thought we were trainable. I'd go so far as to say he knew we weren't trainable without the Holy Spirit changing us.)
3. Explained over and over and over again that it will be a narrow pass, it will be very difficult, and we must hate ourselves, our families, our property, our prosperity, and any other thing that we would put before him - complete and total submission to the Will of God, only.
4. Accepted the anointment with oil when the time was right and he considered it appropriate.

Don't forget that this Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, still retains the regal authority to command - worship as proscribed or die for your profane strange fire. He makes us conform to his image and promised to shape us with fire and long suffering. He is, indeed, training us, every day.

Anonymous Susan July 23, 2014 1:14 PM  

@Michael Maier

If you haven't had an occasion where after especially passionate and energetic sex you haven't felt it even in your ears, you just haven't been doing it right. I speak as the wife married for nearly 37 years to a very happy man.

Of course a big part of that has been he's ready and willing for sex anytime I want it. Speaking from a woman's perspective, you get from life what you put into it. That is not aimed at anyone in particular, just saying for general purposes, that's all.


Anonymous The Book Dame July 23, 2014 1:26 PM  

I have been married 15 years. I have two children. I am a Christian.

I admit to being obtuse on all of this I guess, because I just don’t understand these women.

Again, I approach this from the perspective of a Christian woman, who believes it is her duty to follow Biblical commands. 1 Cor. 7:15 makes it clear that you are not to deprive one another, except for prayer, etc. and then ONLY when there is mutual consent. So, there is zero excuse for any Christian woman to deny her husband sex. Zero. If you do so, you are breaking a biblical command. You are sinning and you need to repent and correct your ways.

For those woman who are not Christians, I don’t understand them from a practical point of view.

You say you love your husband? And yet, you don’t care that he is unhappy and sexually frustrated? Really? You love him and yet you add to his burdens and stresses voluntarily and consciously. You do something that makes him genuinely miserable and you do it on purpose. And when he tells you that what you are doing makes him unhappy, you keep doing it. Don’t tell me you love your husband if you are doing such a thing.

Second, for completely practical purposes, it is in a women’s best interests to keep her husband happy. There are a myriad of benefits to having a happy husband. I can say this from own experiences and from everything I have observed from numerous relationships around me. A happy husband makes life much easier, much less stressful, and much more enjoyable.

You women who do this are selfish, miserable, immature, mean and cruel. Shame on every one of you.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 1:26 PM  

Can't post now. Will do so later. Please be patient, and keep monitoring comments tonight, Mr. Vox Day.

Anonymous PA July 23, 2014 1:32 PM  

The ears thing and Russian fertility comment: some people have trouble with metaphors.

(Russian fertity is rebounding, BTW)

Anonymous buzzcut July 23, 2014 1:38 PM  

Mawwiage. Mawwiage is what bwings us togethew today. Mawwiage, that bwessed awwangement, that dweam within a dweam. And wove, twue wove, wiww fowwow you fowevah and evah… So tweasuwe youw wove.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 23, 2014 1:49 PM  

“She's in denial about the state of her marriage, brought about by her refusal to submit to her husband.”

You are predicating your supposition on the belief that marriage is rooted exclusively in Christianity. Is the couple religious? Do they adhere to the principles of the Bible? If yes, her behavior runs counter to the Good Book. If no, then she is under NO obligation to submit. NONE.


“If you were paying any attention at all, you would realize that not all marriages are exactly like yours.”

More marriages today are decidedly anti-Game and anti-Alpha Male by the couple's own free will.


“Marrying one of these bitches is a massive mistake, because she's already displayed evidence that she's a herd animal, unable to discern for herself (or with help) how to live.”



Not YOUR choice to make, it’s the decision left to the man.


“Too many men have fallen lock, stock, and barrel for the tenants of the feminist imperative and need something to break them out of it.”

OR, these men do not adhere to Game theory, do not agree with Game theory, and of their own volition, and (gasp) lead fulfilling lives. The reason why increasing numbers of young men are not marrying and producing offspring is because they simply...don’t...want...to...work...hard...in...that...relationship. They are married to a materialistic lifestyle.


“Really? You love him and yet you add to his burdens and stresses voluntarily and consciously.”



Some men and women are simply not “hardwired” for sex on demand, sex in dangerous places. etc. It is biological in this regard. In other cases, men and women growing up in households observe their parents being non-sexual or are taught to be non-sexual. It is behavioral in this instance.


"it is in a women’s best interests to keep her husband happy."

No, it is in the couple's best interests to keep one another happy.



In the end, the guy made a choice by marrying a woman who is has sexual issues. He has another choice...stay in the relationship and hope it gets better (which it won't), or divorce her and "spin plates".


"You women who do this are selfish, miserable, immature, mean and cruel. Shame on every one of you."

White knight much?

Blogger Anthony July 23, 2014 1:52 PM  

It is almost surely a quintessential male response to a very typical female tactic: the demand for proof.

Vox, you're wrong. She didn't make a "demand for proof". She denied what he said - she gaslighted him. She probably said stuff like "you haven't asked me for sex for three days" (when he did each of the last ten) or "we had sex last Saturday" (when they didn't).

This is emotional warfare, and women don't demand proof in emotional warfare. (They're less likely than men to do so elsewhere, but I have worked with women engineers and accountants who do insist on people supporting their claims.) They make assertions. In this case, the husband reacted in a very stereotypically male way. I wonder if they're in couples counseling, and he prepared this list for the next session with the counselor in response to her lying about it at the last one.

All this assumes this isn't some sort of publicity setup.

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 1:58 PM  

Love the post as always, just a quick correction: the first quote you attribute to Roosh is from his compilation blog Return of Kings and the writer is Troy Francis.

Thanks, mate. Corrected.

OpenID rufusdog July 23, 2014 2:04 PM  

Rumpole5,
Sounds about right to me. A man MUST be attracted to a potential wife, but that is only a place to start. I get the impression from some men I know that that is where they start and stop. Nothing more miserable than a man who married and had kids with the hottest piece of ass he could find just to realize later he should have been looking for so much more.

Game is the shallow water, the only nod I will give to it is since families are busted up and men aren’t raising their boys anymore many boys become men without ever having someone model to them what a man should be. I had a great dad, and he had a good dad, my mom’s dad was also a good man and both my grandpa’s came up poor and lived hard lives.

But acting like a man is only part of it, having a biblical understanding and the Holy Spirt as a guide is also just as important and having your wife on the same page.

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 2:07 PM  

In the end, the guy made a choice by marrying a woman who is has sexual issues. He has another choice...stay in the relationship and hope it gets better (which it won't), or divorce her and "spin plates".

You're assuming that just because she doesn't want to have sex WITH HIM she doesn't want to have sex AT ALL.

Anonymous Michael Maier July 23, 2014 2:15 PM  

Susan July 23, 2014 1:14 PM @Michael Maier

If you haven't had an occasion where after especially passionate and energetic sex you haven't felt it even in your ears, you just haven't been doing it right. I speak as the wife married for nearly 37 years to a very happy man.


Good for you and him.

Even though you are apparently humour-deprived.

Blogger Retrenched July 23, 2014 2:15 PM  

Marriage doesn't guarantee a man a supply of sex; far from it. All marriage really does is give the man's wife a monopoly on the ability to provide sex to him. And we all know what effect monopolies have on prices.

Guys who like getting laid regularly probably shouldn't bother with marriage, really.

Anonymous dh July 23, 2014 2:20 PM  

You're assuming that just because she doesn't want to have sex WITH HIM she doesn't want to have sex AT ALL.

My first second and third thought. Young, thinks she's a success, no kids. She's at the height of her willing-to-have sex years. My guess is she's screwing around. Probably with a work colleague and a male acquaintance.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 July 23, 2014 2:21 PM  

You are predicating your supposition on the belief that marriage is rooted exclusively in Christianity. Is the couple religious? Do they adhere to the principles of the Bible? If yes, her behavior runs counter to the Good Book. If no, then she is under NO obligation to submit. NONE.

The belief that women are to submit to their husbands is neither a Christian nor a Jewish tradition or value. From the ancient Chinese to the Muslims to the Japanese to the American Indian tribes, all of them view martial relations as the husband being dominant and the wife being submissive.

There are very few societies in history that practiced otherwise. In fact, I doubt you could find more than one.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 2:32 PM  

Team Woman can go to Hell. And so can the dog trainers.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 2:35 PM  

Young, thinks she's a success, no kids. She's at the height of her willing-to-have sex years. My guess is she's screwing around.

Mine was that she's on hormonal contraceptives and they're tanking her libido.

But it's more fun to assume the worst, yeah.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 2:45 PM  

I seek the opinions of Vox and the Dread Ilk.

I am a Catholic man married to a Catholic wife. My wife is good in so many places where women fail. But she withholds sex.

I've talked to her over and over about it. She has been well briefed on why sex is important in marriage, and the consequences of withholding it. She admits she is at fault, and she says she feels guilty about it. But still, no sex.

As Catholics, we do not use birth control. We have three kids. Each is spaced out by two years. We try to implement Natural Family Planning. We avoid sex when she speculates. Only, it seems to me that she thinks this means no sex at all. In our "sexless marriage" we have sex once or twice a month. It feels obligatory to me, crushes my ego, and I feel emasculated.

Divorce is out of the question, since good Catholics do not believe in it. Even if she committed adultery, we could not be divorced. Nor do I want to give up on this otherwise wonderful woman, or destroy the lives of my children.

Natural Family Planning is fine, but she should know that we REALLY need to make up for the time we've abstained in those infertile times. But it seems as though she doesn't have the drive or assertiveness. She's always been meek like that.

Although we've agreed to do Natural Family Planning, that did not rule out anniversaries, Valentine's Day, Birthdays, Christmas, or other special occasions. Yet, our anniversary this month was me coming home with flowers while she slept. It was dry as a bone.

She is afraid of becoming pregnant. We don't get help or support from many people, and she is afraid of watching children and being pregnant for nine months. It is always this story.

I tried to communicate with Athol Kay about this privately via email. He told me he couldn't help me, and then wrote a post about how frustrating my religion is:

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/04/sin-or-misery-birth-control/

I got a little moral support from Leonidas at "Gaming My Wife," but no solid solution:

http://gamingmywife.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/let-me-explain-it-more-slowly/

This withholding of sex causes me to feel little, weak, and powerless. Our marriage withers every day, but no one would guess that once they saw our three kids.

I am a man, and I will do what I can for this family. But I feel the time for talk is over. Does Vox or anyone know what to do?

Blogger CM July 23, 2014 2:46 PM  

Mine was that she's on hormonal contraceptives and they're tanking her libido.

This.

Ditching hormone therapy and going all breeder makes sex SO much more FUN.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 2:54 PM  

Ditching hormone therapy and going all breeder makes sex SO much more FUN.

((That's what my BFF said, actually. When I told her I was getting married, she BEGGED me not to EVER take them and told me how this happened to her. She's just crazy about her husband now, and they've just had their fifth baby. So I'm a little biased, but I suspect that this is a big problem for more women than is commonly thought.))

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 2:54 PM  

She is afraid of becoming pregnant.

Can't get pregnant from a BJ

Blogger CM July 23, 2014 2:55 PM  

She is afraid of becoming pregnant. We don't get help or support from many people, and she is afraid of watching children and being pregnant for nine months. It is always this story.

If both of you genuinely believe this is the problem, get educated on the female reproductive cycle. Learn how to track body changes and recognize signs of fertility.

I have adverse effects to OCs, so we've been NFP for 5 years now. We have 2 kids and aren't looking for more. A woman has a very small window of fertility and part of real nfp is learning what that is.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 3:00 PM  

PS: I respect what Athol Kay tries to do, which is why I privately emailed him about my problem in the first place. But in my particular case, I do not think he was prepared or equipped to help me because of his atheism. I thank him for his time anyway.

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 3:02 PM  

Of course nfp is contraception, so you're already practicing birth control.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 3:04 PM  

I'd add to CM's comment that maybe your wife feels like she's incompetent to handle things on her own. Does this turn up in anything else she does?

I mean, it's not very nice to say, "Quit being afraid", but sometimes it comes down to that. Fear kills, and that's what feminism peddles.

Blogger CM July 23, 2014 3:06 PM  

That's what my BFF said, actually. When I told her I was getting married, she BEGGED me not to EVER take them and told me how this happened to her.

I used the ring after our first for a couple months. It took me months after stopping for it to be good again. After our 2nd, as soon as I was healed up, the turn around was like magic.

My weird effects have been... psychotic... to put it gently. Yaz made me physically sick, Nuva made me feel like sandpaper and dulled my senses, and the mini pill had me locking myself in my room so as not to hurt my kids. And these effects are not uncommon.

You know how many post partums are put on the mini pill with psychotic side effects? I'd like to know how many homicidal mothers were on progesterone and had PPD.

Anonymous Don July 23, 2014 3:07 PM  

qrstv - Learn about when she is most likely to conceive and least. Not all intimacy need lead to pregnancy. We are a catholic couple that has been married for 33 year and we've had one unplanned pregnancy. And we have a fine sex life.

We have times where there is limited activity but it is not due to fear of pregnancy or because neither of us are interested. If she's still afraid after you as a couple have looked at the situation and know the facts then I'd be worried that the rejection has become a habit on her part or she's seeking it elsewhere.

Anonymous Porky July 23, 2014 3:11 PM  

Yet, our anniversary this month was me coming home with flowers while she slept. It was dry as a bone.

Wake her ass up.

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 3:12 PM  

Yet, our anniversary this month was me coming home with flowers while she slept. It was dry as a bone.

Step one: stop all the loving attention and romantic gestures. You're cutting your own throat. Dial back your contributions to the marriage to the bare minimum. No vacations etc. Take a trip with your male friends and don't ask her for permission, inform her the day before. When she complains, shrug and tell her it's really not your problem.

You have carte blanche. She has thrown away her only influence over you. Forget sex entirely for the next six months; don't push for it, ask for it, or request it at all. Start living your life like a man.

If her interest still doesn't pick up, then it's time to try something else. But above all, remember, carte blanche.

I love it when people try to play "heads I win, tails you lose with me". I just smile and say: "I do believe you just handed me carte blanche. I'll do whatever the hell I please now."

Anonymous GracieLou July 23, 2014 3:18 PM  

"It feels obligatory to me, crushes my ego, and I feel emasculated." "This withholding of sex causes me to feel little, weak, and powerless."

And that is why she does it. Can't say for sure, but it probably has nothing to do with NFP which I also practice (first marriage invalidated due to Pauline Privilege). As stated in my previous post I spent many years with an atheistic, narcissistic, possibly borderline Asperger. He had many wonderful qualities (I valued at the time) such as a delightfully sarcastic sense of humor and a six-figure income, but then there was the control freakery. And the decided distaste of things human and gritty like love and intimacy which are just so common and yucky. And make a person feel vulnerable to lesser beings. Better to withhold and bask in the power of it.

Love this quote from Kevin O'Brien, "We are obligated to love, but we have a right to expect a return of some sort. People who love without reciprocation are miserable - because unrequited love (and unrewarded effort), common though it is, is contrary to the way reality is supposed to work."

I'm guessing this is probably not making you feel better. I never could find a solution myself so I can't offer much more than my sympathy, understanding and prayers.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 3:25 PM  

Thank you Mr. Day. I appreciate your advice very much. I am sort of leaning in this direction, to tell you the truth. Thank you for your time. I am embarrassed that I do not know these things already.


To others who tell me to have us watch her cycles: I've already stated that we are aware of and practice Natural Family Planning. She watches her cycles.

But I have a question for the Catholics here: Do you make an exception when it is a special occasion? Do you have sex on a holiday, even if she is circulating, and you are trying to avoid pregnancy?

Anonymous Don July 23, 2014 3:28 PM  

qrstuv - Sure why not? That's not how our unplanned pregnancy happened (we don't think) but so what if she does get pregnant? Unless there is a significant health risk or a medical issue pregnancy and children are blessings not something to be avoided at all costs.

Anonymous GracieLou July 23, 2014 3:46 PM  

Well I can't disagree with Vox's advice. At some point you must exit the hamster wheel. You must. More than likely she'll think, "Oh crap, he really means it this time!" It comes down to respect.. I told husband 1 point blank this would ruin our marriage and still, THE SHOCK when it actually happened! Right there shows a lack of respect for my ability to get respect which I guess is true since I rode the hamster wheel for 19 years.

More Kevin O'Brien, the first part of that quote, "Shaking the dust from your feet and moving on - difficult as that may be - is neither cold-heartedness nor pride. It's a form of humility and the command to do so is God's admonition to save us from pouring our efforts into black holes. We are obligated to love, but we have a right to expect a return of some sort."

OpenID cailcorishev July 23, 2014 3:53 PM  

Qrstuv, what is the grave situation which necessitates avoiding pregnancy in the first place? You do know that NFP is only to be used for grave need, right, and not just for "spacing children out" because you want to? If the situation is grave enough to use NFP -- say, the doctor said pregnancy right now could be life-threatening for her -- then the question about having sex on a holiday when she's fertile makes no sense. If there's a grave need to avoid pregnancy, it doesn't go away on holidays.

Using NFP as "Catholic contraception" (which unfortunately too many priests and church leaders are still doing) leads to the same problems as artificial contraception, including the separation of sex and marriage, which allows women to think of sex in marriage as something optional. Find a priest who's orthodox to tell you both that you have no grave need to use NFP, and she'll no longer have that excuse to refuse you at all.

Anonymous ogunsiron July 23, 2014 3:57 PM  

I'm on a professional forum where they were discussing this spreadsheet story and surprisingly, most men and women are on the side of the frustrated guy. Even our resident feminist males didn't go as far as telling the guy to "man up".

One woman on the forum is the resident empowered mom and she was like "gee he managed to get sex twice a month, that seems often enough!" and she got lots and lots of pushback. I was surprised by the number of women who felt that it was important to at least try and that once one tries, one often gets in the mood just by trying.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 23, 2014 4:07 PM  

Vox should follow his own advice when dispensing “advice” to qrstuv...That is because you are narcissistic and lack both empathy and observational skills. If you were paying any attention at all, you would realize that not all marriages are exactly like yours.


“Step one: stop all the loving attention and romantic gestures.”

qrstuv, if you have attempted this or any “scorched earth” approach in the past, and as a result of your implementation her attitude toward sex changed, prolong it a bit further and assess your progress. However, if you have never implemented it, and you believe your wife will react extremely negatively for quite some time, decide to what extent you want to continue with this frame, realizing whether the potential benefit--sex--will outweigh the potential cost--the relationship.


“You're cutting your own throat. Dial back your contributions to the marriage to the bare minimum. No vacations etc. Take a trip with your male friends and don't ask her for permission, inform her the day before.”

qrstuv, do you have the gumption to “man up” ? Do you have the willingness to endure potential, perpetual shitstorms of emotion as a result of this radical move? Are you willing to possibly, and irreparably, damage your relationship over the consistent lack of physical intimacy? If not, refrain from taking this dramatic step.



“You have carte blanche. She has thrown away her only influence over you. Forget sex entirely for the next six months; don't push for it, ask for it, or request it at all. Start living your life like a man.”

qrstuv, you are a “man”. Never think otherwise.



“If her interest still doesn't pick up, then it's time to try something else.”

Sex on a regular basis seemingly for your wife is NOT in her DNA. Perhaps divorce would be the “something else”. I would bet the farm that you are devoted to her and are willing, in the end, to put up with the lack of sex for security, devotion, and companionship for the sake of family stability.

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 4:13 PM  

Is plethora tad?

Anonymous GracieLou July 23, 2014 4:13 PM  

As far as NFP goes, I'm in my forties and started thinking, hey if God wants to do an Abraham and Sarah miracle who am I to stand in His way? Husband #2 is fine with it. He leaves the control freakery up to God who isn't a control freak at all, so...it's all good.

Anonymous Porky July 23, 2014 4:14 PM  

at least try and that once one tries, one often gets in the mood just by trying.

This.

Go caveman on her. She'll thank you for it.

And stop that Family Planning nonsense. Your priest should be fired.

Who do you think gets more tail anyway...Father O'Brien or Jim Bob Duggar?

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 23, 2014 4:18 PM  

I went through a period of time, too long, that this sex isdue was a problem. My wife and marriage of 30 years was worth saving but depression, deep sadness, the sense of there bring something wrong with me made for a miserable family life. There were a couple of times where her no eas ignored. No sex for a long time, being hard up and then expect cuddling? I am leaving a lot of details out, I finally sat her up on the bed and told her that sex is the definition of marrige, otherwise, it was called roomating. I took my ring off and put it on my nightstand and told her that I will put it back on when she decided to be a wife. Things have improved dramatically but it will take a long time to get a very unpleasant history.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 4:19 PM  

"what is the grave situation which necessitates avoiding pregnancy in the first place?"

She has had only c-sections with our three children, and there is some concern about healing times.

Also, we are a single-income lower-class family with a budget that is sometimes tight. Also, we get NO support from family. My family is close by, but you have to twist their arm for help of any kind, and they only help grudgingly. Friends always seem busy, though they offer to help babysit every now and then. I figured getting babysitting help would be women's work, but she hardly ever takes initiative to find a babysitter unless I tell her to and go through a list of her "mother" friends with her.

The money-tightness, the C-sections, and the lack of support are primary reasons we Naturally Family Plan.

The utter absence of no support is why she is fearful of nine months of pregnancy. When I work, I am gone for 13 hours a day, though I only work 3 times a week. I used to be gone 17 hours a day, 3 days a week, so perhaps those hard day's ginned up a lot of fear in her.

Am I supposed to find and schedule babysitters in order to have a normal happy married sex life?!?

A part of me says: "Why can't she get her act together?"

We never go out. Ever.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 4:22 PM  

So what should he tell his kids about why he's never around?

I often see advice on punishing wifey but never on how to deal with how the kids respond. I'm curious.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 23, 2014 4:23 PM  

Things have improved dramatically but it will take a long time to get over a very unpleasant [emotional] history.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 23, 2014 4:25 PM  

Sigyn, depends on their age. It could be from Dad started a new hobby to "your mom and I are not getting along."

Anonymous Porky July 23, 2014 4:28 PM  

So what should he tell his kids about why he's never around?

He works 3 days a week.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 4:32 PM  

She has had only c-sections with our three children, and there is some concern about healing times.

Oh GOD, I have such a fear of surgery! I totally sympathize. The very idea gives me the creepies.

I figured getting babysitting help would be women's work, but she hardly ever takes initiative to find a babysitter unless I tell her to and go through a list of her "mother" friends with her.

She needs to get over that, pronto, by sheer willpower if she has to.

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 4:37 PM  

Is plethora tad?

No. Tad has zero interest in intersexual relations. Also, different writing style.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 23, 2014 4:38 PM  

Qrstuv, what is your age?

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 4:40 PM  

To follow up, Qrstuv, did she HAVE to have c-sections, or did the doctors push it? It's very possible to have "normal" births after a c-section, barring a legit need for them.

You don't have to give gory details, of course. Just a straight-up "yes, she had to" or "no, didn't have to" will do the job. Because that makes a huge difference.

...I'm troubleshooting right now, to make sure there aren't special circumstances.

Blogger JDC July 23, 2014 4:40 PM  

dh - Did I read correctly you have a blog?

I would add a second question - you have a church?

Random: I would be fascinated to see the list of proof-texts supplied to justify this particular exegesis of Sacred Scripture.

Without even looking at his website I can give you one of them:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

Leftists/liberal/feminist Christians will take this verse about salvation, or being "heirs of the promise" and apply it to sexual and social identities and shriek - "See, we're all the same!" This verse usually surfaces when the aforementioned are pressed about homosexuals in the church or female pastors.

Or...they will turn the commandment to love into some vexatious mandate that we must accept and permit all things including gender role equality. This all begins with the notion that the Christian church is sexist, and must be purged of its sinful and patriarchal past. In order to do this one must reinterpret the Bible (especially those nasty sexist parts), create their own services, dominate seminaries who allow them entrance, remove male pronouns from music and scripture, and insisting that a gay pastor is just as good as a non-gay one. In fact, they are probably better because of the struggle.


Anonymous automatthew July 23, 2014 4:46 PM  

"Step one: stop all the loving attention and romantic gestures."

Yes. And do not explain yourself. Also stop doing any housework. And do not explain yourself. Treat her as she is acting: a housekeeper and mother, but not a wife.

Then learn to love women for what they are, as weaker vessels in need of a good filling, rather than to be sorrowful or angry or bitter at the female nature.

I've been there, and I've done that. The eventual result was an affectionate, lusty, 80 pounds lighter wife.

Anonymous Porky July 23, 2014 4:47 PM  

qrstuv, years ago I took my wife out to lunch and told her I didn't love her anymore, and that it was entirely because she withheld herself from me and I was finally fed up.

It shocked her, and she changed. a dozen or so years later we are still banging it out like rabbits and she asks for it more than me. You can try the passive-aggressive approach that others have suggested, but at least consider an honest, direct nuclear confrontation.

OpenID cailcorishev July 23, 2014 4:54 PM  

Qrstuv, I'm not going to tell you whether those are good enough reasons to use NFP; that's between you and your priest, perhaps with some input from her doctor. But to answer your question: if the reasons for avoiding pregnancy are grave enough to use NFP, then they're grave enough that you can't take holidays off from it. Or to put it the other way: if she's willing to have sex on Valentine's Day even though that's a dangerous part of her cycle, then she's not that scared of pregnancy, and her reasons start to sound like excuses.

If you do keep with it, Vox's advice is solid: no sex means no emotional commitment from you. If she expects you to go without for an extended span each month, then she should be willing to go the extra mile to top you off sexually the rest of the month. If not, she's just using NFP as an excuse to get the sexless marriage she wants.

Anonymous automatthew July 23, 2014 5:07 PM  

Porky: It shocked her, and she changed. a dozen or so years later we are still banging it out like rabbits and she asks for it more than me. You can try the passive-aggressive approach that others have suggested, but at least consider an honest, direct nuclear confrontation.

What Vox suggested and I confirmed works should not be done in a passive aggressive manner. No, you don't spring this on her as a surprise, having never spoken clearly your problem with her behavior. This is the response to an incalcitrant woman who refuses to act as a wife.

You also shouldn't do this if you can't let go of being butt-hurt. It is a complete frame change. The mindset must not be one of punishment, but of appropriate response to someone acting self-destructively.

So it will work for Deltas, but not for Gammas.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 23, 2014 5:08 PM  

“I've been there, and I've done that. The eventual result was an affectionate, lusty, 80 pounds lighter wife.”

“It shocked her, and she changed. a dozen or so years later we are still banging it out like rabbits and she asks for it more than me.“

qrstuv, under such testimonials, do you, a consumer of this “knowledge”, expect these results to be reasonable or atypical?


“Yes. And do not explain yourself. Also stop doing any housework. And do not explain yourself. Treat her as she is acting: a housekeeper and mother, but not a wife.”

Again, is that “alpha” or “sigma” male inside of your beta body, just waiting to break out? Or are you simply “you”?


“If not, she's just using NFP as an excuse to get the sexless marriage she wants."



Essentially, cail is saying he knows your wife better than you know your wife. The relationship is not “sexless”, it’s “lacking sex”. There is sex, just not enough for your liking. 
Men think more about sex, men seek sex more avidly. Women’s sexual turn-ons are more complicated then men. Since sexual desire in women is extremely sensitive to environment and context, take that approach.

Or, just take her when she says no to sex or is unwilling to engage in sex. Repeatedly. Without remorse. It’s your “Christian duty” as a “man”. It is the "civilized" thing do to.

Anonymous automatthew July 23, 2014 5:08 PM  

"If not, she's just using NFP as an excuse to get the sexless marriage she wants."

Exactly.

Anonymous automatthew July 23, 2014 5:11 PM  

Plethora: Again, is that “alpha” or “sigma” male inside of your beta body, just waiting to break out? Or are you simply “you”?

You're a contentious and ignorant fool. I am not even close to Alpha. Greater Delta, possibly. What I describe is merely manly behavior, which is likely why you do not comprehend.

Anonymous Sigyn July 23, 2014 5:29 PM  

*sigh, facepalm* Never mind. I have my own problems to worry about. I'll be over there, frying pork chops and mashing potatoes.

You guys constantly remind me of how awesome my husband is, that's for sure.

Anonymous hausfrau July 23, 2014 5:34 PM  

In a good marriage, sex when you don't "feel into it" is like going to a movie, doing the honey-do list or any other activity that you do for someone else that you don't really get anything out of in itself. You do it because the enjoyment it brings the other person is enjoyable and satisfying to you. And a good spouse goes about it in a way that conceals their lack of enthusiasm. If your husband feels like he's screwing a cadaver, you haven't done anything unselfish by deigning to throw him a few sex crumbs. The running theme in all the ladie's comments against spreadsheet husband is that he is not entitled to the wife's body and has no right to demand sex when she doesn't feel like it. They bristle with hostility that they don't at all times own their own bodies but then that's what marriage is. The two become one. The expectation of faithfulness comes with the corollary sexual needs will be reasonably provided for within the marriage. Marital vows should not be a de facto vow of celibacy just because one person is never ever in the mood. Over time denial of sex is a breach of marital vows.

Anonymous Josh July 23, 2014 5:36 PM  

I'll be over there, frying pork chops and mashing potatoes.

What time is dinner?

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 5:36 PM  

cailcorishev July 23, 2014 4:54 PM
If not, she's just using NFP as an excuse to get the sexless marriage she wants.




unless she's got a major hormonal problem, she doesn't want a sexless marriage. just look at the testimony from some of the Christian women here.

what she's doing is using control of sex to control the wife-husband relationship.

BECAUSE she is being successful at controlling her husband, at some level she is aware that she is reducing his status.

and rendering her husband low status certainly will kill her libido.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 5:39 PM  

Plethora Of Thoughts July 23, 2014 5:08 PM
Or, just take her when she says no to sex or is unwilling to engage in sex. Repeatedly. Without remorse.



you're supposed to be 'remorseful' about having sex? with your spouse?

gotta be bimbo Ann.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 5:55 PM  

My wife and I are in our mid-thirties.

Anonymous Scintan July 23, 2014 5:56 PM  

The woman gave excuses when she should have been giving blowjobs. Naturally, the idiot crowd defended the woman.

I wish the man better luck with his next wife.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 6:02 PM  

Sigyn July 23, 2014 5:29 PM
and mashing potatoes.


never understood the point in that. maybe for the baby.

cut out the woody or rotten parts but leave the skins on, cook em hard enough to soften em up, smash em with your fork, slather on the butter, salt and pepper, maybe dress with a little garlic or onion.

mmmm, mmmm, mmmm.

all the carbs a body doesn't need.

Anonymous automatthew July 23, 2014 6:12 PM  

It does read like a woman trying to write like a man.

Blogger jimmy-jimbo July 23, 2014 6:13 PM  

At HookingUpSmart, it is blamed on the husband for bad communication. I wonder how much better communication it will be if they had a long talk about it. I predict it will go nowhere. Communication isn't the problem. Intent is the main point.

Of course, the husband is blamed for the eventual breakup. Ignoring the fact that the wife has already sabotaged the marriage.

Then there's that "male sexual entitlement". Duh. Sex should be an obligation of marriage to each other.

No one is owed sex. And no one is owed a marriage.

Anonymous qrstuv July 23, 2014 6:17 PM  

@ Sigyn

Yeah, the C-section was necessary. We tried VBAC, but it did not work out, and we had to have another C-Section.

OpenID pancakeloach July 23, 2014 6:32 PM  

If the situation is grave enough that NFP as a form of contraception is licit, then why wouldn't an artificial form of contraception also be licit under those same circumstances? I have never been satisfied with any Catholic reasoning I've seen on this point. I respect people who use NFP for the sake of their faith, but the logic behind requiring it has always struck me as totally at odds with 1 Corinthians 7.

OpenID cailcorishev July 23, 2014 6:55 PM  

If the situation is grave enough that NFP as a form of contraception is licit, then why wouldn't an artificial form of contraception also be licit under those same circumstances?

I don't know if this is the official reason, but the one that jumps out at me is that, with NFP, you're sacrificing by abstaining for a good chunk of each month, so presumably you won't want to extend the practice any longer than necessary (though some people obviously do abuse it). With artificial contraception, you don't have to sacrifice anything; you can screw every day and put off conception as long as you like, ignoring the procreative aspect entirely.

Anonymous VD July 23, 2014 7:00 PM  

It does read like a woman trying to write like a man.

It is. It is Ann Morgan, one of the regular trolls here. They can never figure out that changing their names doesn't help because they always write the same stuff.

Blogger IM2L844 July 23, 2014 7:25 PM  

It is. It is Ann Morgan, one of the regular trolls here. They can never figure out that changing their names doesn't help because they always write the same stuff.

Yeah, but maybe Ann has a magic vagina with super-duper special powers. Did you think of that?

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 7:45 PM  

IM2L844 July 23, 2014 7:25 PM
Yeah, but maybe Ann has a magic vagina with super-duper special powers. Did you think of that?



you saying she's a 'spinner'?

Anonymous Al July 23, 2014 8:21 PM  

If the situation is grave enough that NFP as a form of contraception is licit, then why wouldn't an artificial form of contraception also be licit under those same circumstances?

Short answer: because the NFP, properly and correctly implemented, is not really a form of contraception at all.

Long answer: See here:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/AnscombeChastity.php

Blogger Iowahine July 23, 2014 8:38 PM  

bob k. mando

you saying she's a 'spinner'?

Had to google "starfish" in the Urban dictionary earlier today; now this? Please, tell all, bob.

Mashed potatoes have their own charm, esp. with skins left on.

Blogger IM2L844 July 23, 2014 11:28 PM  

you saying she's a 'spinner'?

No. I'm saying that Ann keeps referring to sex as if it is the ultimate goal to be viewed as a reward that needs to won by the husband by adjusting his behavior in such a way that conforms to the wife's emotional needs, desires and psychological quirks.

If that's true, then she must have something vastly more amazing than anything I've ever encountered. It really not all that difficult. Don't give it more power and control than it deserves. They are commonplace. They're everywhere. Hers isn't all that special. It's not a matter of pretending you can take it or leave it. It's a matter of knowing it and letting her know that you know it. There is nothing more pitiful to a woman, even if it's only subconsciously, than to see a man groveling and jumping through hoops in the hope of being rewarded with a little sex. Its just sad and shortsighted.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 23, 2014 11:59 PM  

IM2L844 July 23, 2014 11:28 PM
There is nothing more pitiful to a woman, even if it's only subconsciously, than to see a man groveling and jumping through hoops in the hope of being rewarded with a little sex.



which is what i already said, just not quite so verbosely.


Iowahine July 23, 2014 8:38 PM
Had to google "starfish" in the Urban dictionary earlier today; now this?



you seriously want definitions for things you can't find on Encyclopedia Dramatica?

you do realize that if you persist in seeking such knowledge you may really regret it?

actually, it is on ED:
https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Spin

last definition.


Blogger Retrenched July 24, 2014 12:08 AM  

Is Ann Morgan the one who posts as 'GG' over at Alpha Game?

Blogger IM2L844 July 24, 2014 1:06 AM  

which is what i already said, just not quite so verbosely.

I guess that's what I get for just skipping over most of your comments.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 1:33 AM  

Retrenched July 24, 2014 12:08 AM
Is Ann Morgan the one who posts as 'GG' over at Alpha Game?


no, GG was originally "yttik". still has tendencies to solipsism but not nearly as bad as Bimboat Annie.

Anonymous Daniel July 24, 2014 1:44 AM  

BINGO!

Anonymous GTA hot coffee mod July 24, 2014 4:29 AM  

"Does Vox or anyone know what to do?"

Try lot's of coffee with strong caffeine content, build that into her diet or strong Chai tea(s) for breakfast several days in a row works well. There is also ALOT of libido enhancing products on the market both herbal and synthetic that do work though she'll probably have to try a few before she settles on something that works for her. Damn I'm good.

Anonymous GTA hot coffee mod July 24, 2014 4:43 AM  

TAZO Chocolate Chai Tea Latte concentrate that goes with milk, for example is an excellent breakfast drink to get things going.

Blogger Tom July 24, 2014 9:00 AM  

@MrGreenMan

Having trained a dog or two and being in the process of training up children (and married which I guess isn't a given any more), allow me to explain my objection to the image used a little more clearly.

Training a dog is for the owner's benefit, not for the dog's. It doesn't matter to the dog if it pees all over the floor, it matters to the owner. It doesn't matter to the dog if it sits at just a certain time, it only matters to the owner.

I don't believe that Christ trains us for His own benefit. He has absolutely no need of us or our service. He could just as well cast us all into hellfire. But He chooses not to because He LOVES us. That love is patient, kind, long suffering, and does not look to its own benefit.

That's my main objection to the dog training image. God trains us out of His love for us, not because He needs out obedience. We as Christian men should be training our wives in the same way. Not out of desire for certain benefits, but out of love and a desire that our wives would live the most God honoring lives possible.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 24, 2014 9:16 AM  

“I'm saying that Ann keeps referring to sex as if it is the ultimate goal to be viewed as a reward that needs to won by the husband by adjusting his behavior in such a way that conforms to the wife's emotional needs, desires and psychological quirks.”

That is marriage as defined by the individual couple. There is no “one size fits all blueprint” so to speak.


“Marital vows should not be a de facto vow of celibacy just because one person is never ever in the mood.”

Ideally, yes.


“Greater Delta, possibly.”

I would not be advertising your lowly status.


“There is nothing more pitiful to a woman, even if it's only subconsciously, than to see a man groveling and jumping through hoops in the hope of being rewarded with a little sex.

Assuming that the wife is consciously scheming to deny her husband sex. It could be biological. Has qrstuv definitively stated that his wife has been engaging in this mental warfare?


It doesn't matter in the long run. It is THEIR marriage, THEIR life. Offer as much outlier advice as you want.

Anonymous qrstuv July 24, 2014 9:34 AM  

Plethora: "Assuming that the wife is consciously scheming to deny her husband sex. It could be biological. Has qrstuv definitively stated that his wife has been engaging in this mental warfare?"


No. She is not trying to play headgames with me, nor is she having an affair. She is simply scared of being pregnant again and having no family support.

Also, she says she just wants to enjoy the kids for a while without being pregnant.

Myself, I'd like to enjoy being a husband for a while without being celibate.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 24, 2014 9:42 AM  

Tom, well said.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 24, 2014 9:43 AM  

qrstuv, is vasectomy out of the question?

Anonymous qrstuv July 24, 2014 12:27 PM  

Yeah, vasectomy is out of the question.

Anonymous qrstuv July 24, 2014 12:29 PM  

You know, I'm starting to think that Catholic couples are just doomed to endless sexless marriages with no spark. Or at least those marriages where one of the spouses decides to withhold.

I guess God expects the other spouse to just hold out and suffer through the marriage. After all, Jesus Christ endured a life of persecution and eventual crucifixion, so why can't you suffer a sexless marriage you selfish bastard, you.

Anonymous RedJack July 24, 2014 12:39 PM  

qrstuv,

Following the recommendations may work, they may not. The real questions you need to ask yourself is this.

Is a sexless roommate situation really what your wife wants right now? And if so, what then? Are you willing to deal with the consequences?

Honestly, it sounds like your marriage is hurting already.

And as others have said, NFP isn't supposed to be Catholic contraception. Even though it is taught that way.

Anonymous RedJack July 24, 2014 12:41 PM  

Plethora Of Thoughts July 24, 2014 9:16 AM

That is marriage as defined by the individual couple. There is no “one size fits all blueprint” so to speak




Well, expect that there is (or was). There used to be a standard list of expectations, rights, and responsibilities that came with getting married. That all got blown up over the last 60 or so years. To say that "marriage is what ever one person decides it to be" means that there is no real definition of what "marriage" is. Or rather, was.

Blogger IM2L844 July 24, 2014 12:55 PM  

That is marriage as defined by the individual couple.

Says you.

Assuming that the wife is consciously scheming to deny her husband sex.

Wrong again. It's invariably true.

OpenID cailcorishev July 24, 2014 1:09 PM  

You know, I'm starting to think that Catholic couples are just doomed to endless sexless marriages with no spark. Or at least those marriages where one of the spouses decides to withhold.

Someone always gets screwed when the laws of man don't agree with the laws of God and Church. In a Catholic society where those were in harmony, a wife who withheld sex would be shamed by those around her including her own mother, and her husband could demand the marital debt without fear of being punished by the state. The situation wouldn't be likely to happen in the first place. Unfortunately, such a society no longer exists.

Anonymous Curlytop July 24, 2014 1:28 PM  

Qrstuv,
I will pray for you. You are clearly hurting and rightly so, but NO this is not how Catholic couples who practice NFP operate. Do not confuse what is happening with your marriage as the product of your faith and or NFP practice. Though to be honest, it does sounds like you two entered into NFP from the wrong perspective. I've read your post and reread it. The inner workings aren't our business, but there is more going on here and you won't get to the bottom continuing in the direction you have been now. Therefore, follow Vox's suggestions to the letter.

*I'm also curious as to whom your wife's female influences are? It makes ALL the difference. Unfortunately women my generation and younger have not been taught their proper Biblical roles in the marriage, and the church largely encourages the sin with its feminist messages both deliberate and subconscious. Again, this is why Vox's suggestions should weed out the root of the problem.

Praying for a positive outcome. :-)

Anonymous Sigyn July 24, 2014 1:29 PM  

She is simply scared of being pregnant again and having no family support.

Qrstuv, would your wife be willing to have someone mentor her in self-reliance? I might be able to put her in touch with someone who can help her with that. A lot of fear can be dispelled just by knowing you can handle things.

Anonymous Curlytop July 24, 2014 1:30 PM  

Cail,
"Someone always gets screwed when the laws of man don't agree with the laws of God and Church. In a Catholic society where those were in harmony, a wife who withheld sex would be shamed by those around her including her own mother, and her husband could demand the marital debt without fear of being punished by the state. The situation wouldn't be likely to happen in the first place. Unfortunately, such a society no longer exists"

Amen brother!

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 24, 2014 2:06 PM  

The problem as I understand this situation really is Catholic dogma. Sex is only for procreation and the seed cannot be spilled. I think that the Catholic Church is wrong but that is neither here nor there. Vasectomy, confession, penitence, restoration ... and a hope of a marriage.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 24, 2014 2:30 PM  

“Is a sexless roommate situation really what your wife wants right now? And if so, what then? Are you willing to deal with the consequences?”

“Wrong again. It's invariably true.”


qrstuv answered the question--No. She is not trying to play headgames with me, nor is she having an affair. She is simply scared of being pregnant again and having no family support. Back to Reading Comprehension 101 for you!


“There used to be a standard list of expectations, rights, and responsibilities that came with getting married.”

Not “used to be a standard” with “is a standard”. Still exists.


“Says you.”

A timeout is in order for our residential three-year old.


“In a Catholic society where those were in harmony, a wife who withheld sex would be shamed by those around her including her own mother, and her husband could demand the marital debt without fear of being punished by the state.”

Exactly why the United States, while founded on religious principles, adheres to a separation of church and state in this particular matter.

Cail, are you even married? If not, then you distinctly lack the qualifications to dispense your two cents worth here.


“Therefore, follow Vox's suggestions to the letter.”

No, qrstuv, take into consideration and figure out what YOU want to do.


“Unfortunately women my generation and younger have not been taught their proper Biblical roles in the marriage.”

Assuming such roles SHOULD be relevant in today’s society.


“I guess God expects the other spouse to just hold out and suffer through the marriage.”

Indeed, that is why VD’s advice runs directly counter to His message. Being essentially selfish by not helping out around the house and focusing on your temporal needs serves no purpose in solving the problem. Perhaps talking to your priest or those in your congregation (if you and your wife feel comfortable) is another avenue to pursue.

Anonymous Plethora Of Thoughts July 24, 2014 2:31 PM  

“Is a sexless roommate situation really what your wife wants right now? And if so, what then? Are you willing to deal with the consequences?”

“Wrong again. It's invariably true.”


qrstuv answered the question--No. She is not trying to play headgames with me, nor is she having an affair. She is simply scared of being pregnant again and having no family support. Back to Reading Comprehension 101 for you!


“There used to be a standard list of expectations, rights, and responsibilities that came with getting married.”

Not “used to be a standard” with “is a standard”. Still exists.


“Says you.”

A timeout is in order for our residential three-year old.



“In a Catholic society where those were in harmony, a wife who withheld sex would be shamed by those around her including her own mother, and her husband could demand the marital debt without fear of being punished by the state.”

Exactly why the United States, while founded on religious principles, adheres to a separation of church and state in this particular matter. Cail, are you even married? If not, then you distinctly lack the qualifications to dispense your two cents worth here.


“Therefore, follow Vox's suggestions to the letter.”

No, qrstuv, take into consideration and figure out what YOU want to do.


“Unfortunately women my generation and younger have not been taught their proper Biblical roles in the marriage.”

Assuming such roles OUGHT to be relevant in today’s society.


“I guess God expects the other spouse to just hold out and suffer through the marriage.”

Indeed, that is why VD’s advice runs directly counter to His message. Being essentially selfish by not helping out around the house and focusing on your temporal needs serves no purpose in solving the problem. Perhaps talking to your priest or those in your congregation (if you and your wife feel comfortable) is another avenue to pursue.

Anonymous qrstuv July 24, 2014 3:22 PM  

Since some folks here are invested in the thread of this post, I'll tell you what has happened so far this week. Tuesday I talked to her and told her why people have sex and what happens if sex is avoided. Got none that night or Wednesday. Today is Thursday. Earlier, she asked me if we were still going to go out on a date tonight (tonight is when we are to celebrate our anniversary instead of last Saturday). But I've been depressed a lot, and I honestly didn't care one way or the other what I did with my evening at that moment. She started to cry. Then we had another long talk for about an hour while I got a family member to watch the kids.

It all boils down to having some sort of support system for her so that she is not scared of being pregnant. She is scared to be watching the kids and not have any help from anyone at all.

So I told her that what we need is to have a solid weekly schedule of sending the kids off to a babysitter or daycare somewhere for at least two hours of alone time together. By doing this, she will become convinced that we are not helpless and that we have resources for helping to watch our kids. Doing this, will build her confidence and open her up again.

Mr. Vox Day, I thank you heartily for your advice. I started to tell her how all of this is her fault, that the ball is in her court, that I am depressed, that she is neglecting our marriage. I held nothing back. But she cried hard in a way that she should not cry. I've said before that she is far from her family, and by giving her a cold shoulder, she feels more alone in the world than ever. I cannot and will not do that to her.

Mr. Day, I think your advice is very applicable to your typical American girl. A lot of people in society are selfish, blind, and hedonistic. But I do not think the tough love solution is going to work in my case. But many people have given their own testimonies on this thread, and the tough love solution seemed to work for them. So I am not knocking it, and I am very grateful for this post of yours. I hope that you cover this topic more at Alpha Game and here in the future.

Yes, I think a weekly babysitting situation is needful at this point in order to build confidence in getting support. If that effort fails, then we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

I thank everyone for their input very much. If I opened this up at any other site, the advice would be terrible, one-sided, and stupid.

Just look at how all the feminist liberal Catholics
piled onto this poor guy named Boston over at this forum thread:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=835318

Again, I think the majority of people in that forum thread responded terribly to that poor guy.

I thank you all, Mr. Vox Day and the Dread Ilk.

Anonymous Sigyn July 24, 2014 4:44 PM  

Qrstuv, whatever might happen, you're a dear, and she's lucky to have you.

God keep you!

Anonymous Carlotta July 24, 2014 5:15 PM  

Qrstuv,
I have more children then you, zero household help and zero family. My husband regularly puts in 12 hour days and has even been gone for several months while I had a newborn and several children under 5.
I don't know where your Wife got the idea that a staff, babysitters and family members at her beck and call are necessary or even ideal, but many people do without with spectacular results. We also homeschool. And while I do not discuss our sex life, I will say that several times a week plus more is our norm and has been. Period.

It takes hard work and commitment. Taking ever challenge away from her will not make her take her responsibility to provide this for more serious. You will find to your horror that it is now a bargaining chip to get more out of you in the future for the same pitafull payoff.

Unless you get to not support the family because it is hard and you get tired of course.

I hope you take VDs advice.

Blogger IM2L844 July 24, 2014 7:10 PM  

Back to Reading Comprehension 101 for you!

No, you pathetic moron. You're moving the goalposts again. I could take the time to walk you back through what you said followed by my response followed by your rebuttal and so forth, but I'm not going to bother since you still wouldn't get it because you cant seem to remember from one minute to the next or follow an elementary line of reasoning without getting sidetracked like a low functioning raccoon in a junk yard.

Anonymous Carlotta Does Not Know Iota July 24, 2014 11:54 PM  

“I don't know where your Wife got the idea that a staff, babysitters and family members at her beck and call are necessary or even ideal...”

You are projecting, sweetie! It is abundantly clear that she has deep-rooted insecurities AND is not “wired” to fornicate upon command. Her actions represent thousands of females who have similar issues. Because, in the end, she is NOT going to pull a 180 and become the type of sexual creature he desires. Furthermore, he failed to escalate matters when she began to cry. Probably because he does not have the internal capability like VD and others to go for the jugular in that instance. qrstuv is a Christian man who is devoted to his wife, his family, and children. Therefore, beta? Whatevah.


“You will find to your horror that it is now a bargaining chip to get more out of you in the future for the same pitafull payoff.”

Then qrstuv will deal with the consequences of not taking VD’s “advice” and let the chips fall where they may.

Anonymous GTA Hot coffee mod July 25, 2014 12:01 AM  

"It all boils down to having some sort of support system for her so that she is not scared of being pregnant."

Dude, two words - Ovulation period. Just avoid that and you'll be golden and don't forget the drinks ;-)

Anonymous qrstuv July 25, 2014 12:33 AM  

@ Carlotta:

Believe me that I truly admire that you are able to have such a self-sufficient marriage. Often, what you described is the standard against which I measure our success. And we are failing at meeting that standard. Horribly.

The reality is that God makes people differently. My wife is a very sweet woman who comes from a place where everyone loves each other and helps each other all the time. When she married me, she jumped into a world of difficulty. Today I jokingly asked if she feels like Sansa Lannister trapped at King's Landing, a place full of despicable people. Thankfully she laughed and said it was not that bad. But when she cried today, it was sincere and out of weakness and fear, not manipulation, and I regret having brought her to that point. She felt completely alone. She was not trying to play me. No matter what happens, I do not wish to see her that way again. She can cry over harsh realities and whatnot, but I don't think she is the type of typical modern woman who can take the cold shoulder that people suggest I do. If I were married to a more contemporary wife, I'd probably do what Mr. Vox Day suggested. But I have another option left that I can try.

We will try to get a solid babysitter support system going. If that fails, then it fails. For now, I believe people are different, and that doing this can help defeat those "deep-rooted insecurities" that seem to be plaguing her.

Blogger automatthew July 25, 2014 1:13 AM  

"Carlotta Does Not Know Iota"

Shut up, Ann. Human talk.

Blogger automatthew July 25, 2014 1:17 AM  

qrstuv,

Be wary. I have fallen many, many times for the sorrowful act. You are the head. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of her law.

Blogger automatthew July 25, 2014 1:23 AM  

"Dude, two words - Ovulation period. Just avoid that and you'll be golden"

Typically the 6 days before, 3 days after. Short menstrual cycles kill off the pre-ovulation fun.

Anonymous qrstuv July 25, 2014 1:53 AM  

If it fails, I might let you know if I can remember. But we only have one life to live, and this isn't "game theory on the dating scene." This is our lives.

Anonymous Carlotta Does Not Know Iota July 25, 2014 8:37 AM  

AutoMatthew--"Be wary. I have fallen many, many times for the sorrowful act.

qrstuv is not taking your advice for a host of reasons, yet you keep insisting he ought to. autoidiot really should be your moniker.

Anonymous Carlotta July 25, 2014 9:23 AM  

Qrstuv,
It doesn't matter how your Wife's childhood was. It is time for her to grow the hell up. You are in charge but you have clearly made the decision that if she cries she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to.

Ann, look up fornication moron. You clearly don't know the definition.

Anonymous GracieLou July 25, 2014 12:22 PM  

Children are most secure when parents are both loving AND firm. Beta, but Alpha when necessary. Alpha supplies the structure and security, beta the nurturing. That's why two parent families are usually better because dads tend to be alpha, moms beta and so you get a nice balance though it's really good if mom and dad are a mixture of both. Mrs Qrstuv sounds somewhat childlike in nature and I'm not putting that down, I like to think it's charming. The point is, when a woman is fearful the last thing she wants her man to be is weak.

Here's an example: My husband is probably a beta on Vox's scale. Somewhat high on the male food chain. He's 'known' A LOT of women. He's not rich, nor does he look like George Clooney but what he does have is a crisp gentlemanly exterior with the ability to go caveman when necessary (or just for fun). This is appealing to women. I'm being totally honest with you here. And another thing, I can't move him. I have thrown fits with genuine sobbing and while he will sympathize, he refuses to cave. This aggravates me to no end but I have to admit it's comforting.

Sometimes men underestimate how much women rely on a man for strength. For example, I've been plagued by 'spells.' This year I finally went to a doctor, a mush mouth lady neurologist who spent months confusing the crap out of me and PCing the issue "Oh, lets just call them 'altered states of consciousness' and here, try these super powerful anti-seizure medications--IF you want." Well kumbaya. Anyway, so almost a year of this and it's getting worse and after each "spell" for 2 weeks I'm practically mentally retarded. I teach art to children. You talk about fear and stress, try 25 kindergartners with scissors in a mentally retarded state. It all came to a head one night when I felt dizzy, then came to on the floor of our favorite bar/restaurant (with my skirt up to my neck, which is why Kate Middleton you always wear underwear). We fired PC neurologist, made an appointment with a very old brain doctor the husband knows from coaching his kids. Old timey male doctors don't give a rat's behind about your 'feelings.' They speak like actual grown men. He straight out said it was epilepsy (PC lady wouldn't have touched that 'label' with a 10-ft. pole). "It's a kind that's hard to treat. Medication will be a life-long thing, find one you can live with. If you can't we can cut out part of your brain, it sounds bad but isn't. The fainting incident (3rd time it's happened) well it could be a faint or it could be ictal asystole which sometimes happens with partial seizures. It means your heart stops beating, which would explain the blue color. You might need a pacemaker...well, yes, 50,000 people a year die from seizures you have to take it seriously." Oh.. A little moment of silence while all that sunk in...and then, relief. I instantly felt safe with this doctor because it takes a pair to be that blunt. Alpha. When the wolves are at the door you need a strong man with a club.

Husband's reaction to all this was pretty good until the near death incident. Society commands beta behavior with a delicate wife but instead of being reassuring it's flipping freaking me out. If there is any time to be about 75% alpha it's now. He's getting over it though, the other day he caught me skimping on the "drunk" pills and swatted my butt. It was awesome.

Anonymous Carlotta Does Not Know Iota July 25, 2014 3:01 PM  

"It doesn't matter how your Wife's childhood was. It is time for her to grow the hell
up."

Typical female who has to have the last word, even though the man is comfortable with his decision.


"You are in charge but you have clearly made the decision that if she cries she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to."

It's not your marriage, sweety.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 25, 2014 3:39 PM  

Carlotta, we already know that it is Qrstuv's marriage. If that is all you can say and keep repeating, just bite your lower lip, preferably with both hands in mouth and do not type anything. You could quietly pray for the couple (no, you do not have to broadcast that you have done so) and count your blessing and thanks the Creator and author of those blessings.

I have advice to offer, and empathy, but in working through my side of life Roman Catholicism was/is not a concern; in our friend's case it is. Therefore, I cannot contribute advice because of what I see as the foundational factor.

On the prectical side of things, Qrstuv. I am a 55yo father of 4 and far away from family, any family, on either side. It has not been easy and it has not been impossible. If your church does not have the right demographics (young families with children) then make sure you move to a neighborhood that does and make good friends, and become good friends, to your neighbors. You gotta see what is normal (yikes, modernity, what used to be normal?) family with kids life IS. Was your wife a single child?

Anonymous Carlotta July 25, 2014 5:13 PM  

Jaime. No.

Blogger JaimeInTexas July 25, 2014 10:11 PM  

Wondering what is the RC's take on this?
http://vaviper.blogspot.com/2014/07/male-contraceptive-news-just-wear.html

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Blogger Sue Preedy April 11, 2015 2:12 AM  

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Blogger Sue Preedy April 11, 2015 2:12 AM  

Hi I am SUE PREEDY from London I got a love spell done on my fiance actually he left me after one year of engagement I was shocked when he told me he does not love me any more he is going to marry with another girl it was very difficult to believe because we were in love from last 5 years he was the guy who never thought to live without me for a second he used to give thousands of phone calls in a day and he was saying to me he does not love me any more, it was a worse news for my family because I gave a very good treat to my friends and raletive on my engagement and we put engagement ring to each other in front of hundreds of people now if he didn't marry me so it was shame for me in my society so I decided that I will get him back any how, than I found Dr.Trust on Internet I told him my problem he told me not to worry I will fetch him back to you he said that he will come himself and will beg me.he gave me 48 hours time and of course it happened before 48 hours he come back to me and said he is sorry for what he did to me,that he is ready to marry me. we get married and we are happy now as husband and wife. really Dr.Trust is a Miracle Man. contact him for your own help ultimatespellcast@gmail.com or ultimatespellcast@yahoo.com call me +2348156885231
....

Blogger Fiona Aaron April 29, 2015 11:18 PM  

This is certainly a shocking and a genuine Testimony..I visited a forum here on the internet on the 14TH OF FEBARUY 2015, And i saw a marvelous testimony of this powerful and great spell caster called DOCTOR OKAYA on the forum..I never believed it, because i never heard nor learnt anything about magic before.. Not a soul would have been able to influence me about magical spells, not until DOCTOR OKAYA did it for me and restored my marriage of 10 years back to me and brought my spouse back to me in the same 24 hours just as i read on the internet..i was truly astonished and shocked when my husband knelt down begging for forgiveness and for me to accept him back.. I am really short of expressions, and i don't know how much to convey my appreciation to you DOCTOR OKAYA you are a God sent to me and my entire family.. And now i am a joyful woman once again.. here is his Email: OKAYASPELLHELP@YAHOO.COM OR OKAYASPELLHELP@OUTLOOK.COM .....Mobile:+2348078291904.......Regard
Fiona Aaron

Anonymous Anonymous April 29, 2015 11:23 PM  

I am out here to spreed this good news to the entire world on how I got my ex love back.I was going crazy when my love left me for another girl last Year, But when i meet a friend that introduce me to DR OKAYA the great messenger to the oracle that he serve,I narrated my problem to DOCTOR OKAYA about how my ex love left me and also how i needed to get a job in a very big company.He only said to me that i have come to the right place were i will be getting my heart desire without any side effect.He told me what i need to do,After it was been done,In the next 24 hours,My love called me on the phone and was saying sorry for living me before now and also in the next one week after my love called me to be pleading for forgiveness,I was called for an interview in my desired company were i needed to work as the MANAGER ..I am so happy and overwhelmed that i have to tell this to the entire world to contact DOCTOR OKAYA at the following email address and get all your problem solve..No problem is too big for him to solve..Contact him direct on: OKAYASPELLHELP@YAHOO.COM or call him on +2348078291904 and get your problems solved like me..... ONCE AGAIN HIS EMAIL ADDRESS IS: OKAYASPELLHELP@YAHOO.COM . he is the best Regard LOUANN JACKSON

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