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Thursday, July 24, 2014

Smells like Lusitanian spirit

The more hysterical the charges we see directed at Putin, and the more strident the demands, the more I suspect that the Russian leader had nothing to do with the downed Malaysian airliner. Mish has been increasingly dubious about the proposed scenario as well:
As I suspected would happen, the exclusive Reuters interview in which "Commander Alexander Khodakovsky acknowledges rebel fighters had BUK missiles" has been challenged.

In my analysis of the Reuters article (see Ukraine Rebel Commander Admits Having BUK Missiles; Damning Contradictions?),  I point out considerable discrepancies in what Reuters author Anton Zverev wrote and actual quotes Reuters presented.

The discrepancies were so big I stated "It appears to me Reuters may have stretched this interview quite a bit."

Thus I am not surprised to discover Khodakovsky challenged huge aspects of that interview, in terms of things he stated, did not state, and even timing of events....

Khodakovsky neither admitted nor denied the rebels had Buks. Once again, here is the damning contradiction as I presented earlier.

    "Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed BUKs, but they may have been used by rebels from other units."

    Now look back at the opening Reuters lead-in: "Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged ... the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence."

    Here is the major contradiction: "What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."
Zerohedge is reporting that the US State Department has not been able to find any signs of Russian involvement. And the Russians themselves are pointing out some awkward facts that may be indicative of Ukrainian responsibility for shooting down the passenger plane.

Remember, many, if not most, wars involve some level of deception, false flags, and deceitful finger-pointing. So it's always wise to reserve judgment in such matters as long as possible. And it's also worth pointing out that the Ukrainian puppet government just collapsed and the US-installed prime minister has resigned:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk has announced his resignation following turmoil in government. Yatsenyuk made the announcement from the dais of the parliament after two parties said they would pull out of the governing coalition. "I am announcing my resignation [in connection] with the collapse of the coalition," Yatsenyuk said.
This is not the action of a nation prepared to fight a war with Russia.

Labels:

117 Comments:

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 1:14 PM  

my estimation of nominally independent, third party facts is this:
1 - prior flightpath routings went over the Sea of Azov, which would never have been anywhere near the ( supposed ) rebel Buk
2 - normal cruise altitude is 35k feet, Uke ATC directed the 777 to a ~31k foot elevation
3 - the Ukrainian military, better than anyone else, knew that rebels had captured a facility with Buk SAMs ( this does not mean they were operational or that the rebs had personnel to operate them ) on it
4 - Uke authorities have not released their radar records of the flight to impact BUT RUSSIA HAS.


from these 'facts' alone, i would assess greater than 50% responsibility for the shootdown to Uke ATC. they knowingly and willfully put a civilian flight directly over the middle of a hot combat zone AND directed it to reduce altitude almost into prohibited airspace, meaning that any operating SAMs would more easily be able to take the aircraft down.

the question of "who fired" is almost irrelevant.

excepting, of course, that if the rebs did it, it was certainly accidental.

whereas if the Ukes did it, this is certainly a false flag op and a major war crime.

Blogger El Borak July 24, 2014 1:15 PM  

Here we are now, entertain us.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey July 24, 2014 1:20 PM  

Some of us called it from the start. The louder they yell, the more it seems they are hiding something.

Nice title, btw.

Anonymous bw July 24, 2014 1:20 PM  

<a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-24/newspeak-cover-study-propaganda>Bonzai nails it.</a>

The best comment?
<i>I saw the Newsweek cover (Propaganda vs Putin) and was speechless. All that was missing were the numbers 666 and a hidden penis.</i>

Anonymous bw July 24, 2014 1:21 PM  

again

Anonymous YIH July 24, 2014 1:36 PM  

The Germans ain't buying the US story either
[English via Google translate]

Anonymous Rolf July 24, 2014 1:37 PM  

As always, the first casualty of war is the truth.

Anonymous Kentucky Packrat July 24, 2014 1:41 PM  

WW1 was supposedly to get "even" for various slights, provocations, and feints, with most of the involved powers getting dragged in because of treaties and alliances. The problem is, the amount of "justice" given out was overwhelmed by the sheer waste of life trying to make the point.

Any attempt to hold Russia (or even Ukraine) "accountable" will fail equally spectacularly. Sanctions and the like will be useless, so we would have to place in advisors and aides, and then Russia does likewise. Any escalation into a serious war would show how much of a paper tiger both sides are. A "real" war would quickly deteriorate into a WW1 style meat grinder. This time, the US won't be the Great White Hope saving Western Europe, it will be the one with a destroyed economy and army (and that assumes both sides can keeps its pants zipped, nuclear-wise).

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 1:46 PM  

John McCain's and Barack Obama's pet Ukrainian Prime Minister and his government (installed by the U.S. in yet another "regime change" operation ) resigned this morning and the entire media establishment, on cue, has decided to treat this as a minor event. It took an amazingly long time to put the story up. CNN was slow and Fox News was even slower. Maybe it took awhile for the talking points memo to circulate.

Both cable news channels relegated the story to minor status, embedding it in yet another story about the retrieval of the victims' bodies from the Flight 17 shoot down.

The CNN story actually says, and I quote:

"Ukrainian political experts said they expected the resignation, and that Yatsenyuk and his Cabinet will remain in place as an acting government until elections in October."

Sure they "expected" the resignations. That's why there's been so much reporting on the subject (not!). This client government which U.S. neocons installed and against which the separatists are rebelling, suddenly resigns and CNN reports with a straight face that unnamed "Ukrainian political experts" expected these resignations? This is hilarious and absolutely incredible.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 1:48 PM  

Kentucky Packrat July 24, 2014 1:41 PM
Any escalation into a serious war would show how much of a paper tiger both sides are.



you're assuming Obama is actually against Putin.

i note that this incident provides ever more excuse for Putin move forward with monetary, banking and trade schemes to remove the US from it's central place of power in the world.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 1:51 PM  

Frank Brady July 24, 2014 1:46 PM
This client government which U.S. neocons installed and against which the separatists are rebelling, suddenly resigns and CNN reports with a straight face that unnamed "Ukrainian political experts" expected these resignations?



sounds to me like TPTB have made the same estimation of the situation that i did, that this was a false flag / induced shootdown but that it was a rogue op by the Uke admin AND they don't think they're going to be able to contain the evidence.

Anonymous Dumb founded July 24, 2014 1:53 PM  

"i note that this incident provides ever more excuse for Putin move forward with monetary, banking and trade schemes to remove the US from it's central place of power in the world."

It is likely that the whole Ukrainian mess was started to warn Putin off of trying to restructure the international financial system by those who control it.

Anonymous zen0 July 24, 2014 2:02 PM  

@Frank Brady:

John McCain's and Barack Obama's pet Ukrainian Prime Minister and his government (installed by the U.S. in yet another "regime change" operation ) resigned this morning and the entire media establishment, on cue, has decided to treat this as a minor event.

More evidence that the US knows it was Ukes that shot it down. I would not be surprised if the US and Putin made a deal to massage this all away.

Tough break, innocent passengers. Maybe you will get a nice memorial service to compensate.

Anonymous 11B July 24, 2014 2:14 PM  

Coupled with Ukrainian security seizing the tapes from the air traffic controllers to the pilots, this really is starting to look bad for the war mongers. They were prepared to ratchet up sanctions and possibly even risk war with Russia over this.

Meanwhile it has been a week since we've discussed the invasion along the southern border. To the best of my knowledge it is proceeding full speed ahead.

For those of you with the means, please donate to NumbersUSA. I give small amounts via paypal. Twenty dollars here, twenty dollars there and soon it adds up. These guys are doing yeoman's work and fighting the good fight against the open borders crowd.

Anonymous Fran July 24, 2014 2:16 PM  

Hey Zeno, why would Putin cooperate with usa at this point?

Blogger Danby July 24, 2014 2:17 PM  

I think the whole mess started quite a while ago when the Bush administration was ginning up color-coded revolutions in former Soviet allies and member states, trying to isolate Russia and drive back her influence. There were other, subsidiary considerations, like pipeline routes and exploitable mineral wealth, but mostly it was simply pushing back against a rival. and I don't know that there's anything particularly wrong with that per se.
The problem is that in Ukraine we found the most corrupt, venal, foolish people we could to put into power. Thir solution to the very real ethnic split in Ukraine was to punish and disenfranchise the ethnic Russians, and to take a hard line against any co-operation with the Russian government. Whether that was at our behest or simple revenge fantasy I don't know.

You don't get to take out your petty frustrations on your neighbor, who happens to be both your father-in-law and your employer, without some repercussions. In this case, all Putin had to say to the ethnic Russians in Ukraine was "We have your backs."

At this point, the actual provenance of the missile that shot down the Malaysian airliner doesn't much matter. Everyone who cares has already made up their mind, and NOBODY is going to do anything about it. The French will still deliver the jeep carriers, the Germans will keep buying gas, and the Americans will continue to point-and-shriek, but no-one will attack, sanction, boycott, embargo or impose any penalties at all on any of the parties.

At the same time, the Russians are helping their cousins in Ukraine (which is hugely popular amongst average Russians), poking the US in the eye (also hugely popular with the average Russian), demonstrating their cunning and strength to potential allies throughout Asia and Eastern Europe, and will probably wind up with actual territorial gains, in the most desirable part of the region, without themselves committing any troops.

We're being played, by a master.

Frankly , Putin has game.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:26 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 2:34 PM  

Fran July 24, 2014 2:16 PM
Hey Zeno, why would Putin cooperate with usa at this point?



because Obama is Putin's poodle and you can dance much closer to the edge of the abyss than you normally would when you actually direct all of your "opponents" actions?

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:34 PM  

The US government claims that their SBIR satellites were able to track the launch location, and the link to zero hedge mentions that the Russians have confirmed that a US satellite was in the area. The Russians claim to have had detected a Ukranian fighter jet in the area, I don't know if the US has verified the Russian claims. If that claim is true, then for this to be a false flag that would entail that the fighter jet would have had to intentionally direct the passenger plane towards a Ukranian Buk.

But there is something very important missing from that hedge article Vox. Two Ukranian fighter jets were shot down recently over rebel territory and their altitude around 17,000 ft. I suppose there is an off chance the Ukranians could have shot their own planes down but if that were the case the rebels and Russians would be pointing that fact out. They aren't so that leads me to believe that the rebels did actually shoot those jets down.

That is important because the type of man pad anti-air missile launchers available to the rebels have a max ceiling of 11,000 ft. That information alone proves the claims that the rebels do not have sophisticated anti-air weaponry as false.

It doesn't prove that the Russians supplied the system, or were involved. But the omission of the greater than maintained anti-air capabilities by the rebels is a hole in "there is no way the rebels could have done it" argument some have been putting forward.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:39 PM  

I also find it funny that in an earlier article Tyler makes a quip about graphics illustrating satellite information claims and power point, yet he says no such thing when the video he posted has Russians displaying graphics that could just have easily been fabricated.

Anonymous Anti-Democracy Activist July 24, 2014 2:39 PM  

Remember that the "Russia did it" stories are brought to you by the same mainstream media responsible for the "800 Irish babies in a sewer tank" hoax.

Everybody remember back in the 80s, when we used words like "brinksmanship", and the general consensus across the political spectrum was that nuclear war was a really bad idea, and thus needlessly provoking nuclear-armed countries was a totally stupid thing to do?

Of all the crazy things I thought Barack Obama would do as President, bringing us closer to the edge of nuclear war than we'd been since the Soviet Union went out of business was not one of them.

Blogger James Dixon July 24, 2014 2:40 PM  

> That is important because the type of man pad anti-air missile launchers available to the rebels have a max ceiling of 11,000 ft.

>> 2 - normal cruise altitude is 35k feet, Uke ATC directed the 777 to a ~31k foot elevation

So, which is it. 11K or 31K? If it's 11K, there's no way they could have shot down the plane.

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 2:44 PM  

Cogitans luvenis wrote, "But there is something very important missing from that hedge article Vox. Two Ukranian fighter jets were shot down recently over rebel territory and their altitude around 17,000 ft. I suppose there is an off chance the Ukranians could have shot their own planes down but if that were the case the rebels and Russians would be pointing that fact out. They aren't so that leads me to believe that the rebels did actually shoot those jets down."

How does that work? That the separatists may have shot down two Ukrainian government fighter planes flying at 17,000 feet is in no way an indicator that they "might" have shot down a passenger plane flying at 30,000+. These two events are not logically linkable, IMHO.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:50 PM  

Need to offer an addendum, there are manpads that could potentially reach the cruising height of the shot down fighters.

The SA-18 has a ceiling of 17,000 feet and the SA-24 has a ceiling of 20,000 feet

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:53 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 2:58 PM  

see my addendum, however, if my initial claim had been true, then yes it is logically linkable.

If the ceiling of their known man-pad missiles is 11,000 ft, yet they shot down fighters outside that operational ceiling, then the logical conclusion is that they possess more advanced weaponry, one of those possibly being the BUK.

If conclusive evidence comes out that the Ukranians are responsible I won't deny it but I do think there are some posters on Vox's blog and zerohedge who are defaulting to US conspiracy and ignoring/unwilling to consider any sort of information or analysis that casts doubt on their conclusion.

Anonymous scoobius dubious July 24, 2014 3:01 PM  

There are certain places in the world where you just plain expect to see a lot of chaos and violence and stupidity. And then there are other places where you'd think people would have more sense. This whole Russia/Ukraine thing just seems so damn unnecessary. I guess the neocons must have a kind of psychotic need to stir up trouble where none is required. If USG had any sense at all it would be trying to make nice with the Russians instead of poking at them with a stick for futile reasons. Is there a single reasonable intelligent adult anywhere at all in the American government? Doesn't seem like it.

This should be an era of major powers working together harmoniously to advance common interests. It's hard to believe that these days it's the Americans who are the ones in thrall to destructive psycho ideologies while the Russians are sane. Even the Chinese for all their nonsense seem like they make more sense than America, which is stumbling around the planet like an angry drunk, just waiting to get his teeth kicked in. How the hell did we come to this?

Blogger James Dixon July 24, 2014 3:03 PM  

> The SA-18 has a ceiling of 17,000 feet and the SA-24 has a ceiling of 20,000 feet

Neither of which is 31K, where the civilian plane was supposedly flying.

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 3:05 PM  

Cognitans luvenis wrote, "If the ceiling of their known man-pad missiles is 11,000 ft, yet they shot down fighters outside that operational ceiling, then the logical conclusion is that they possess more advanced weaponry, one of those possibly being the BUK. "

So if I possess a Yugo, it would be "logical" to believe that I might possess a Mercedes?

Blogger James Dixon July 24, 2014 3:06 PM  

> If the ceiling of their known man-pad missiles is 11,000 ft, yet they shot down fighters outside that operational ceiling, then the logical conclusion is that they possess more advanced weaponry, one of those possibly being the BUK.

OK, I'll buy that. We don't know one way or another at this point though.

> ...but I do think there are some posters on Vox's blog and zerohedge who are defaulting to US conspiracy and ignoring/unwilling to consider any sort of information or analysis that casts doubt on their conclusion.

This is the same government that claims the unemployment rate is just over 6%, and you don't expect us to be sceptical of their claims?

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 3:15 PM  

@ Frank

No Frank that quip doesn't even remotely illustrate what I am saying. I thought I was clear but let me try again. If you claim you have a Yugo that can drive 200 miles on a single tank while at the same time denying that you have a Mercedes that can go 400 miles on a single tank, however, you just drove 300 miles on a single tank; it is not outside the realm of reason to suspect that you might actually have the Mercedes. My initial postulation about the man pad was erroneous since Ukraine did posses SA-18s which can be shot up to 17,000 ft and the rebels most likely do possess those weapons, but my initial logic was not faulty.

@ James
I totally expect you to be skeptical of our governments claims, I also expect us to be skeptical of the Russians. This isn't the word of the mean 'ol US versus the innocent Russia. These are two rival empires that have killed innocents, used nations and generally don't give shit about sacrificing their own citizens in order to grow their empire. I am simply pointing out how strange it is to put more stock in the word of one untrustworthy empire over another.

Anonymous Noah B. July 24, 2014 3:17 PM  

"This is the same government that claims the unemployment rate is just over 6%, and you don't expect us to be sceptical of their claims?"

It seems simple, doesn't it? When someone has conclusively proven himself to be a liar, stop trusting him.

Blogger James Dixon July 24, 2014 3:28 PM  

> I totally expect you to be skeptical of our governments claims, I also expect us to be skeptical of the Russians.

The Russians don't lie to me every day. Our government does. So yes, I'm more likely to take the word of the Russians. Only slightly more though.

Blogger JAU July 24, 2014 3:37 PM  

"So if I possess a Yugo, it would be "logical" to believe that I might possess a Mercedes?"

No, but if you possess a Yugo, and are observed screaming down the highway at 130 MPH, it is "logical" to suspect that you might possess another car besides the Yugo.

Anonymous RedJack July 24, 2014 3:38 PM  

scoobius dubious,

Russia is trying to roll back the liberal agenda. From banning gay PR, to trying to protect Christians in the ISIS region,they are not following the play book. So they are now a target.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 3:43 PM  

From this article: US: Russia 'created the conditions' for shoot-down - http://tinyurl.com/n9at59l

no evidence – cautious in their assessment – was likely – they did not know – They were not certain – although – we don’t know – we don’t know – we’re not even 100 percent sure – may have – the most likely explanation – they were relying in part on – they have not been able to authenticate – appearing to be – they had not yet verified – Despite the fuzziness – are implausible – But if they possess – they did not release it – depicts their estimation – although the U.S. doesn’t have proof – it is unlikely – we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian – officials said it was conceivable that – there was no direct link – they did not know…

And of course we have this hussy from the State Dept.: What possible other explanation could there be?

http://youtu.be/MhPwX8p9i5w

And:

Another curiosity is the fact that most of the “intelligence” the US claims to have is in reference to “YouTube” clips, photography, and conclusions drawn on a series of pro-Kiev Ukrainian blogs (written in English). Is US intelligence simply reading blogs? Or are the blogs somehow a clearinghouse of US intelligence? Or are the blogs fabrications by US intelligence in an attempt to frame Russia? One in particular, “Ukraine at War,” is a definitive collection of fabrications, biased propaganda, and dubious claims that appear to precede “US intelligence” claims.

US Appeals to “Law of the Jungle” in MH17 Case - http://tinyurl.com/qhddxdo

And it is funny that someone in the State Dept spends 4 to 6 hours a day reading my blog as screen captured form my site meter.

Amateurs.

Blogger Random July 24, 2014 3:44 PM  

" These are two rival empires "

Not anymore, the only empire left is the USA.

Anonymous Fnord P July 24, 2014 3:45 PM  

Slightly parallel topic:
An Air Algérie flight from Burkina Faso to Algeria with 116 people on board vanished from radar over northern Mali early Thursday. Paris says 51 French nationals were among the passengers.

Yes, you read that right 51/116 passengers on a flight from Ouagadougou to Algiers were French nationals (nb not French).

I remember queuing in a bank behind a French national and being the nosy type I looked at his application form. It read - Place of birth: Morocco, Place of residence: Morocco, nationality: French.

They claim nationality through the totally porous system, claim the 'alloc' (social security) and live like kings in the Maghreb.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 3:46 PM  

The US bombed the Bosnian Serbs in the mid 1990s based on the Sarajevo market bombings which were about a year apart and later on we used this and "self determination" to take Kosovo from the Serbs and give it to the Albanians.The US insisted the 120 mm Mortar rounds came from Serb positions. But US, and French army officers, plus one Russian artillery general (Dumenko?) said in the their shell reports that the rounds were fired from a nearby Muslim position. The French and US army officers shell reports did not appear in the official reports and the US army officers were sent home and ordered to not talk about their inaccurate shell reports. At the war crimes tribunals in Belgium they asked to speak to the US officers but we refused. The official report has the mortar rounds coming from a nearby mountain under control of the Serbs (Tribec?). The Russian Artillery General actually visited the mountain they were supposedly fired from days after the attack and took photos and produced topos to show that it was impossible to hit the market from these positions. BTW, the market was in a Serb neighborhood, which only appeared in the French press.

Anonymous Harsh July 24, 2014 3:51 PM  

I like how the Ukes shot down two of their own fighter jets to sell the false flag. That's hardcore right there.

Anonymous Trimegistus July 24, 2014 3:52 PM  

Just because you distrust the US government doesn't mean the Russian regime is truthful or benevolent. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is still an enemy.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 3:53 PM  

Last screen shot (yesterday) of State Dept ogling my blog for narrative hints: http://tinyurl.com/ks3p3o3

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 4:00 PM  

JAU wrote, "No, but if you possess a Yugo, and are observed screaming down the highway at 130 MPH, it is "logical" to suspect that you might possess another car besides the Yugo."

Actually, not! If I own a car that is better at "screaming down the highway at 130 MPH" my failure to choose that one for my drive would certainly suggest SOMETHING but it wouldn't be logic.

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 4:15 PM  

Cogitans luvenis wrote, “see my addendum, however, if my initial claim [that man pad anti-air missile launchers available to the rebels have a max ceiling of 11,000 ft] had been true, then yes it is logically linkable.”

Yes, "if". But it wasn’t, so it isn’t.

Anonymous scoobius dubious July 24, 2014 4:33 PM  

"Just because you distrust the US government doesn't mean the Russian regime is truthful or benevolent."

That may be so, but at least they no longer follow a murderous crackpot ideology that makes them try to take over the world. (Now it's us who do that.) The Russians want to have control over their natural sphere of influence, make money selling oil and gas, and drink a lot of vodka. I don't see them as anybody's enemy. Well, except the neo-cons. Russia is not historically a natural enemy of ours; this whole handwringing crap about the threat of a "resurgent Russia" is utter nonsense. Meanwhile we're getting eaten alive by a "resurgent Mexico" and the only conversation on the table is about how to help them do it faster. I _wish_ the Russians would invade America. It'd be an improvement.

Anonymous hungrytales July 24, 2014 4:35 PM  

What about Russian thugs who pose as 'rebels' robbing the bodies and mishandling the crime scene? Is it also the Ukrainian puppet government's fault?

Surely the Australians who have just sent across half the globe a C-17 packed with investigators and fully armed special police task force to remedy the situation must be some severely misguided lunatics.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 4:36 PM  

Frank, an argument can be logical and still wrong. The fact that my initial statement was based on the SA-16 and not the SA-18 doesn't change the logical validity of my argument; keep in mind that I pointed out the error in my own premise the moment I found out it was wrong. There is no conclusive evidence at this point that the rebels possess advance weaponry, however, if they shoot a fighter down outside of the SA-18 ceiling then the conclusion postulated by my argument comes into play.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 4:41 PM  

This is what I know about the Russian Army. There's only about 40,000 troops up to the standards of NATO and about 60,000 more that are pretty good but not very well equipped and mostly used as light infantry in the various Muslim shitholes like Chechnya. The Russians are definitely resurgent but that's an economic thing, not a military thing.

OpenID luagha July 24, 2014 4:48 PM  

How big is a BUK and how tough to use? I've seen that picture where it looks like any truck can tow it around. Is it a point and click kind of a device - you see a blip on your screen, press the 'lock on' button, and launch?

As much as I like conspiracy theories that go ten layers deep, a dork with an advanced weapons system who sees a blip and a button-pressing finger is all that's necessary to start with.

Anonymous dh July 24, 2014 4:50 PM  

ENthePeasant--

Depending on whom you listen to, that's about all the US have of real combat troops that aren't stuffed full of rejects and idiots and criminals. A division of special ops and a few divisions of marines and army that are not completely ruined yet.

Anonymous takin' a look July 24, 2014 4:52 PM  

What I would like to know is why so many of the so-called research cadavers were rotten (enough to make both the rebels and a Dutch doctor vomit from the smell) and naked. Remember, unless you seal the bodies in cadaver bags or coffins, they are going to STINK UP THE DAMN PLANE, the cargo hold shares the same pressurized air as the cabins and passenger holds.We already know the 100 HIV?AIDS researchers story is bullshit, Emirates Air was the official airline for that conference in Oz. The total number has been knocked back to just six docs.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 4:53 PM  

What about Russian thugs who pose as 'rebels' robbing the bodies and mishandling the crime scene? Is it also the Ukrainian puppet government's fault?

Where does this crap come from? The girls at State Dept. and Ukraine’s genocide Poroshenko as he sodomizes with the IMF, EU, and NATO.

Dutch authorities have said they are furious at reports of bodies being dragged around at the crash site.

But Ramsay said: “I don’t know who is telling them this but that’s not what we are seeing here.

“We haven’t seen them being dragged around… there are other issues around this crash site but the abuse of bodies does not seem to be one of them.”

And speaking about reports of looting and personal items including credit cards being stolen from the debris, Ramsay added: “Of course that is possible but I have to say that in the two days that I’ve been here that is not something I’ve seen.”


Some people watch to much frikkin booboisie. Does anyone ever watch State Dept briefings and actually listen to the back and forth conversations?

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 4:54 PM  

Luagha wrote, “As much as I like conspiracy theories that go ten layers deep, a dork with an advanced weapons system who sees a blip and a button-pressing finger is all that's necessary to start with.’’

Not so, according to the Sidney Morning Herald:

“Whoever fired the surface-to-air missile that brought down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine would have needed extensive training to execute the mission, according to military experts.

“Taking down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, travelling about 965km/h at an altitude of 33,000 feet (10,060 metres), required vastly more expertise than, say, firing a shoulder-braced rocket-propelled grenade at a slow-moving helicopter. A crew of at least four would have been needed to accurately fire the truck-mounted Russian-made SA-11 missile, also known as a Buk missile system.

"’You've got to have people who are technically competent,’" said retired US Army Major General Stephen V. Reeves, who served as an intelligence officer in Western Europe.”

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 4:57 PM  

@ Cogitans Iuvenis

Whatever makes you feel better.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 4:59 PM  

How big is a BUK and how tough to use? I've seen that picture where it looks like any truck can tow it around. Is it a point and click kind of a device - you see a blip on your screen, press the 'lock on' button, and launch?

I've seen pictures! Just press lock and launch!

Gawd.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera July 24, 2014 5:02 PM  

>Of all the crazy things I thought Barack Obama would do as President, bringing us closer to the edge of nuclear war than we'd been since the Soviet Union went out of business was not one of them.

This is based on a false premise. Russia is rapidly modernizing their missile defense system and the US is not, which already destabilizes the detente. Brinkmanship is exactly what I'd expect from a declining empire on the losing side of a nuclear arms race.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 5:03 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger ScuzzaMan July 24, 2014 5:05 PM  

"... who served as an intelligence officer in Western Europe.

IWO, who was a professional liar.

Not saying he's lying in this case, just pointing out the obvious.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera July 24, 2014 5:08 PM  

Should point out that under this interpretation, a US-led false flag comprehensively describes all facts in the story, particularly the use of naked cadavers rather than real people. Even the CIA would rather not have innocent blood on their hands if they can help it.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 5:13 PM  

USA INTEL: No evidence of direct Russian link to plane

But…

Responsible for ‘creating conditions’

But, but, but, but…

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch.

Me thinks there are still to many people hiding under their desks listening the the freedom bells ringing.

The State Dept has bit off more than it can chew with its amateur girly propaganda. Rather than using the evidence that they DO HAVE and won't share, they are creating a false narrative for nothing more that crapping on Russia for annexing the Crimea like we annexed the Guantanamo Bay. Now they still have access to the Black Sea gas and oil transit... Europe and all that... and lets not forget IMF and... BRICS. It's a propaganda war and America is losing badly because you have a bunch of girls in the Oral office and State Dept. addling girlish pablum.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera July 24, 2014 5:13 PM  

Oops, doesn't describe the fighters that were shot down. For the moment, that element is shrouded by the fog of war.

Anonymous dh July 24, 2014 5:14 PM  

"’You've got to have people who are technically competent,’" said retired US Army Major General Stephen V. Reeves, who served as an intelligence officer in Western Europe.”

I have seen earlier systems that are similiar to the Buk. The Russian systems are not all that complicated. 20+ years ago I saw and was around the Kub, which was an earlier version to the Buk. It's a three person crew, and two of them are basically ballast and support, not operators. There is a fire control radar system that was built in the early 1960's, and is all solid state, high-intensity radar. The chasis of the unit is typically pulled now, but they were built as tracked self-propelled platforms. The older systems that were all over Yugoslavia could be operated by a radar operator and a fire control operator working together. The radar operator was responsible for locating and providing the altitude, heading, and velocity of the target. The older systems had just one fire control radar and one targeting radar, so fire control was not coupled to the targeting system (so that each of the three missiles could be launched independently). The fire control operator entered the values from the radar operator into the fire control PLC, turned the key, and covered his ears. Within a second or so he had the responsibility to either destruct the missile or arm it, which was a separate panel which was radio linked to the missle. This was mainly to protect against misfires detonating in proximity to friendly forces or in the launcher in the case of a total launch failure.

The idea that this is rocket science is not accurate. The Kub system was designed privately in the late 50's and went into service in the 60's. It was designed for Russian forces of that time frame, who were basically drunk and illiterate. The Buk's that I had seen from afar much later were running DOS and had a basic linkable between systems so that the data did not have to be re-entered into a PLC solid-state computer. They were essentially networked together. Certainly you need to know the basics of flight, radar, control systems, but I can't remember exactly, the training period was barely a week. And a lot of that was maintenance and reloading processes.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis July 24, 2014 5:15 PM  

@ Frank

The Ukranians had technically competent people back in 2001 and still mistakenly shot down an airliner. Personally, I would not rely that statement as an argument as to why the rebels didn't do it given that it is already known that there are ex-Russian and ex-Ukranian military members are among them given that it is an unverifiable.

Anonymous D.A. July 24, 2014 5:15 PM  

While plenty of the more hawkish types seem to insinuate it, I don't think I've seen anyone in government (US or otherwise) in a position to see the evidence who actually says that Putin was involved in the shootdown directly. More likely separatists, who may have gotten the hardware from Russia, accidentally shot down an airliner because they were not competent enough to distinguish it from a military aircraft under real-world conditions. The simple fact is that mistaken military shootdowns of civilian airliners is unfortunately not unheard of. It has happened many times over the last three or four decades.

In this case perhaps Putin is liable in some sense, but he certainly isn't stroking his Persian cat in his volcano lair and ordering civilian aircraft to be blown up.

Anonymous dh July 24, 2014 5:19 PM  

“Taking down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, travelling about 965km/h at an altitude of 33,000 feet (10,060 metres), required vastly more expertise than, say, firing a shoulder-braced rocket-propelled grenade at a slow-moving helicopter. A crew of at least four would have been needed to accurately fire the truck-mounted Russian-made SA-11 missile, also known as a Buk missile system.

Sorry, one more comment. The SA-11 like it's predecessors is proximity fused. The control system radar puts the missile in the neighborhood of the target ,and then the on-board radar and fuse control detonation. Even a glancing detonation would take down an airliner.

Using the speed and altitude is meant to make it sound harder, but the missle has a performance envelope up to 70,000 feet, has a 20 mile range, and accelerates to Mach 3 in a little bit more than a second. The warhead detonates shrapnel at twice that speed.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 5:23 PM  

"Depending on whom you listen to, that's about all the US have of real combat troops"

I'm speaking of units that could fight together with proper support and services, so actual trigger pullers would be a lot less than that. Mainly I'm speaking to equipment and training. The 40,000 I mentioned have the latest Russian armor, first rate self-propelled artillery and mostly BMPs and BMDs although about 1/3 of the Motor Rifle Bns have BTRs. This is what we counted when they invaded Georgia. It was interesting because they were trying to prepare follow on units (which they didn't need) and they were mostly using old towed artillery, and trucks, with a smattering of older tanks in the mix. The light infantry I spoke of has BTRs, Trucks and a smattering of BMDs in the Airborne units. Some independent Artillery Bns with howitzers, but mostly they'rr using mortars, which are cheap and the Russians have some really big ones. We can doubt the quality of US units but not the equipment or training.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 5:28 PM  

I don't know about the Current Russian Army AA systems but Red Army standard, which still seem to be in place, call for any weapons system to be employed with 10 days of crew training. On the AA stuff I'm not all that familiar so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm guessing those standards are still in place any the BUK system is not very complicated.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 5:31 PM  

You can read about the BUK system here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

You can watch it in operation here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=BUK+anti+aircraft+system+in+operation

Blogger Matamoros July 24, 2014 5:46 PM  

This is from a Ukrainian blogger - Romaninukraine.com

I’m very tired of this “WHO BENEFITS?” argument. #MH17 July 23rd, 2014
I’ve heard this “who benefits” argument several times, and I’m astounded by its popularity. The argument should have been dead on arrival.

If you can imagine a world in which:
- The incident took place deep in Ukrainian-controlled territory.
- The Ukrainian military celebrated shooting down a Russian plane before realizing it was MH17.
- Ukrainian television celebrated shooting down a Russian plane before realizing it was MH17.
- The Ukrainian military dispatched forces to capture the pilots.
- Intercepted recordings emerged of local Ukrainian forces declaring to shocked commanders that it was a civilian plane.
- Ukrainian military forces refused access to the site and even fired warning shots to keep inspectors away.

Then Russia would benefit. Russia would benefit hugely. Their seventy-year-old propaganda of slandering all opposition as Nazi/fascist would finally have some solid evidence.

But in fact it was the Russians / mercenaries / separatists who did all these things.

The counter-theories being spun by the Kremlin certainly deserve close consideration, but one by one they can be found to be smoke and mirrors. Grasping at straws. Something to fuel to libertarians who function on intuition instead of logic.

You can also take it in the context of Russia’s persistent and absurd lies regarding this conflict. There is no equivalence, despite Ron Paul’s lazy, obscurantist, hand-waving claim that “everybody is spreading propaganda.”

After arguing against empire since 2004 (or longer), and against the EU since 1993 (or longer), it satisfies the intuitive impulses of libertarians to doubt the main stream accounts of the crash, which in this case happen to be supported by a vast preponderance of the evidence.

From within the confines of the United States, it can be hard to even imagine why a society would be begging to join the west. But they are. For all it’s decline and fiscal bankruptcy, the west remains vastly superior to Russian kleptocracy, and if you don’t believe me, just look where all of Russia’s elite, including Putin himself, send their children to live.

Anonymous Mr. Stubby July 24, 2014 5:51 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPtDy18Nk5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yoz8nAp9x6w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6KrRw2z59U - start at 3:40

Anyhow... any drunk Russian... or Ukrainian with limited knowledge, can operate this thing!

Seriously? Gotta love it! Russians! They're all drunks! So they have to make super simple stupid!

Stick to the facts please. Not the narrative being spoon fed you.

OpenID luagha July 24, 2014 6:07 PM  

Thanks, dh and Mr. Stubby.

So, a little bit more than point and click, but not a whole lot more; is the answer to my question.
'
And, of course, a passenger jet has no countermeasures or sensors and is traveling a steady course at a steady speed, so fish in a barrel.

Anonymous zen0 July 24, 2014 6:11 PM  

Fran July 24, 2014 2:16 PM

Hey Zeno, why would Putin cooperate with usa at this point?


The Ukraine territory is going to be split up. All they are doing now is posturing and negotiating terms at the same time. Not a sit down negotiation, but establishing facts on the ground. Establishing a stalemate is a chess type move.

Neither wants an actual head to head war on their hands.

Very passive-aggresive.

Anonymous Mr Stubby July 24, 2014 6:24 PM  

But in fact it was the Russians / mercenaries / separatists who did all these things.

Meanwhile...

USA INTEL: No evidence of direct Russian link to plane

But…

Responsible for ‘creating conditions’

But, but, but, but…

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch.

Meanwhile...

KIEV, July 24 (RIA Novosti) – Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk announced his resignation Thursday following the collapse of the ruling European Choice parliamentary coalition.

“If no new coalition is formed and the existing coalition in a parliamentary-presidential republic had collapsed, the government and the prime minister have to resign. I announce my resignation because of the coalition’s collapse,” he said.

Yatsenyuk also expressed disappointment with Ukrainian parliament’s decision to reject a bill that allows the government to hand over up to 49 percent of the country’s gas transport system to investors from the European Union and the United States.
- http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/07/no_author/pro-us-government-collapses/

Meanwhile... Will Germany join BRICS?

Is the US world falling apart at the seams?

Will Putin do a limited incursion into Ukraine being tired of the BS?

When the lead starts to fly, will it be mad man Putin's fault, or fascist IMF, FRB, EU, NATO? Will we see that glorious day when all continents have joined the utopia of 10 regional unions and the glorious UN/Brussels giving us a good dose of unicorn farts?

The game is afoot, may the best mass murderers win!

Anonymous Atombum July 24, 2014 6:29 PM  

This morning as I lay in bed, half-asleep, I heard a caller to a radio talkshow claim that the BUK only has a 12% hit rate. If that's true you need what...eight to knock a plane down? On the other hand you only need one Atoll AAM to do the job on a slow, lumbering airliner.

Blogger Bies Podkrakowski July 24, 2014 6:35 PM  

Matamoros:
This new fascination with Russia and Putin among western Right is nothing new. There was always in the Western World a strong fascination with Russia. This vast, half-savage exotic land was like a canvas on which Westerners could paint their ideas. Conservatives and monarchist in XIX in saw in the autocracy of Czars an antidote against the poison of democracy and republicanism. Religious thinkers like Maritain (himself a Catholic) thought that Russian Orthodoxy was especially pure and destined to save world from spiritual desert. For socialist and other useful idiots Soviet Union was a heaven on Earth. Now it looks like it is again time for conservatives to fall in love with Putin, Vanquisher of Gays, Punisher of Pussy Riot and Protector of Religion.
It always ends in disappointment for the western admirers.

Anonymous Noah B. July 24, 2014 6:57 PM  

"From within the confines of the United States, it can be hard to even imagine why a society would be begging to join the west. But they are. For all it’s decline and fiscal bankruptcy, the west remains vastly superior to Russian kleptocracy, and if you don’t believe me, just look where all of Russia’s elite, including Putin himself, send their children to live."

Although I haven't even been to Russia, my very limited perception is that you are probably correct. That being said, I believe I can highlight the root cause of the current Western enthusiasm for Russia that seems to puzzle you. At this moment, Russia appears to focused on national survival, while the US is acting in ways that can only be characterized as suicidal.

So, out of curiosity about your views, a few questions:

Do you think quality of life in Russia is better or worse than it was 25 years ago?
Do you think quality of life in the US is better or worse than it was 25 years ago?
On what basis do you conclude that the kleptocracy in the US is any less voracious than the one in Russia?

Anonymous 11B July 24, 2014 7:01 PM  

Now it looks like it is again time for conservatives to fall in love with Putin, Vanquisher of Gays, Punisher of Pussy Riot and Protector of Religion.

First, I don't think Russia is a vanquisher of gays. The gay law that got everyone in the West upset does not outlaw gays. It just deals with propagandizing to children. India and other nations have much stricter sanctions against gays, yet we don't hear much about it. It probably has something to do with the fact that as white Christians, Russians are easier targets for progressives than people of color.

Second, I don't think pussy riot should be held up as some sort of beacon of freedom. The minute they burst into a Church and desecrated the altar was the moment they lost all credibility with me. As an American that is one of our cherished rights, the freedom of religion. No matter how much I might disagree with another group, violating their place of worship is a no-no. I don't get the Western fascination with pussy riot. They are the wrong group to get behind.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 7:12 PM  

Count me as one who has a strong fascination for Russia and Putin. However, there's also the matter of truth and so far we've not seen it in the business of flight 17 from the Ukrainians or the West.

Then lets go on to the Obama Regime. A bunch of lying, fascist leaning, Stasi loving totalitarian Liberals is not the kind of people I'm going to believe on any subject (or fight for). If you asked Obama what color his brown shoes were he'd tell you black. If the guys talking he's lying, and to get me to suddenly believe that Obama is telling the truth is laughable. Not to mention when he imposed sanctions last week against Russia the only thing he seems to have banned are my beloved AKs and associated parts. So even his "sanctions" look remarkably like more gun control to me, which makes it just one more Obama move to undermine Gun owners.

OK, that said, there's a side of this I mentioned a few days ago. The day before the shoot down Obama and the EU imposed some weak sanctions against Russia... of course the EU in their normal lack of testicular fortitude immediately clarified that it was something they might do. However, Putin seemed a little bit put out by all this huffing and puffing, and for good reason. He's been very quiet on the Ukraine front for weeks leading up to the sanctions. Russia wasn't making any threats and the Rebels were starting to lose ground and Putin was doing nothing to change that. Considering the range and altitude of the shootdown I'm still of the opinion (everybody's gottem) that it was done by Putin with S-300s from the Russian Rocket forces as an in your face challenge to Obama.

On the other hand something was going on in the world at the time which gives some traction to the notion that this was a false flag of some kind. The Obama Regime had opened borders to our invaders, a move guaranteed to destroy the country... and Americans are thick for sure, but they were taking notice and beginning to get nervous. As soon at that plane went down the media border frenzy pretty much came to a halt. I'm sure Obama was broken up about that.

Anonymous ENthePeasant July 24, 2014 7:18 PM  

"Do you think quality of life in Russia is better or worse than it was 25 years ago?
Do you think quality of life in the US is better or worse than it was 25 years ago?
On what basis do you conclude that the kleptocracy in the US is any less voracious than the one in Russia?"


Well said Noah. You've nailed it. And for anyone to believe the US is on the march to greater prosperity you have to be a special kind of idiot.

Blogger Doom July 24, 2014 7:42 PM  

Hmm? Doesn't matter, because - perception. He uses the same tactics, if what is suggested is true. It is all a game about currency, banking, and influence. To think that the West isn't as unscrupulous as the East... or South, North, or anyone else, is to be fool's errand boy. It's business, big business. And, at this time, nothing else. Further, it's a losing business, but nobody wants to be on the bottom when the floor caves.

If they did get one over on Putin, so be it. He sure takes his turns and shots. The West is no longer Christian. As such, I expect no better, or worse, than any other group. Just business. Too bad, but that has been the way of it for a decade or two now.

Anonymous Hunsdon July 24, 2014 7:59 PM  

And the acting prime minister of Ukraine is . . . Volodomyr Groysman.

Blogger Robert What? July 24, 2014 8:03 PM  

If I am not mistaken, the black box has been recovered but the contents have not been released. Who ever pushes hardest against releasing the black box transcripts is the guilty party.

Blogger Danby July 24, 2014 8:08 PM  

Really? Somehow, some way, we just have to get a Jew running the show?

http://www.jta.org/2014/07/24/news-opinion/world/volodymyr-groysman-tapped-as-acting-premier-in-ukraine

Just coincidence, I'm sure, stareatgoatsies. He must just be the absolutely best guy for the job. Smarter, harder working and by golly, people like him.

Blogger Danby July 24, 2014 8:13 PM  

Obviously all of this has nothing to do with failing to sell Ukrainian government owned assets to multi-national corporations. It's the ethnic Ukrainians regaining self-determination by the appointment of a Jew to run their government.

Anonymous zen0 July 24, 2014 8:34 PM  

@ Danby

It's the ethnic Ukrainians regaining self-determination by the appointment of a Jew to run their government.

The great equalization of diversity as actually practiced.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 8:38 PM  

James Dixon July 24, 2014 2:40 PM
So, which is it. 11K or 31K? If it's 11K, there's no way they could have shot down the plane.



11k is max elevation on a man portable SAM.

the Buk is a tracked vehicle with a max engagement elevation of something silly like 60k feet?

just checked wiki, Buk can engage to 80k feet. which is what it said the first time i checked it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system


the 31k number doesn't have anything to do with max SAM altitude. that's either the min altitude before mandated flight exclusion on the NOTAM or the altitude that Uke ATC directed the flight too, one or the other.

check the previous discussion.



however, IF
the Ukes knew the capability of the Buk unit attempting shootdown and knew that that unit was outfitted with 1st gen missiles
THEN
that would explain why they directed MH15 to reduce altitude by ~4000 feet.

which still doesn't indicate that they fired the missile themselves rather than just baiting the rebs into it.



luagha July 24, 2014 4:48 PM
How big is a BUK and how tough to use? I've seen that picture where it looks like any truck can tow it around.



uh, no. a Buk is self powered and tracked. it's equivalent to a light tank.

i haven't seen any specs on weights for the individual units but i'd be surprised if they were less than 15 tons per unit. for reference, your average Class A tractor weighs between 25 and 35 thousand pounds.

Blogger Matamoros July 24, 2014 8:52 PM  

Bies: It always ends in disappointment for the western admirers.

Well said.

In many ways the fighting in Ukraine is "White Russian" vs. "Red Russian" as noted by a Russian Marxist:

Many Ethnic Russians in Ukraine Identify as Ukrainians to ‘Break Out of Russian World,’ Moscow Marxist Says -
http://www.interpretermag.com/many-ethnic-russians-in-ukraine-identify-as-ukrainians-to-break-out-of-russian-world-moscow-marxist-says/

Blogger Matamoros July 24, 2014 9:28 PM  

It's Time to Assign Blame For Everything Happening in Ukraine - https://news.vice.com/article/its-time-to-assign-blame-for-everything-happening-in-ukraine

Blogger Frank Brady July 24, 2014 10:06 PM  

Well, if it's good enough for a completely objective source like https://news.vice.com/ it's certainly good enough for me for me!

Blogger Danby July 24, 2014 10:20 PM  

Groysman is obviously the American Minder for our putppet political party in Ukraine. How else does a Jew rise to deputy prime minister in an anti-semitic Slavic country? He's our man that we could trust in the organization, and as such he's not supposed to draw attention to himself. But ambition will out.

What I think happened is this; the current ruling party was put into power and given the mandate of turning over the pipelines. In return they'd be given control and a healthy split of the proceeds. The pipelines give us control over Russia's ability to sell their gas to their biggest customer, Germany, as well as most of Eastern Europe. We could, with little notice, financially cripple both Europe and Russia just by staging an "accident" that interrupts the flow.

As a result of our meddling, Russia moved assets they already had in place, taking advantage of the confusion and violence we created in putting our guys in control to 1) take Crimea, 2) weaken Ukraine and 3) poke us in the eye.

One of the tactics the Ukrainians seem to have been using is to sneak bombing raids in behind passenger jets. They instruct ATC to direct the airliner over the target, sneak a couple of SU-22s within a couple of kilometers behind, drop down, hit the target, and continue on. Very clever, IF your opponent doesn't have SAM batteries or high-resolution radar.

A few weeks ago, it is either the insurgents captured or the Russians supplied a BUK system. There are undoubtedly enough former military people in the rebel ranks to operate it. The rebels pick up a radar ping. Being either rash, stupid or correct, they assume there's a bombing raid along with it, and they fire on the aircraft.

Ordinarily one would assume any aircraft flying over a hot zone is a military target. In this case, I think it likely that the airliner was used by Ukraine as cover for a bombing raid. Otherwise the flight path the Ukrainian ATC gave them makes no sense. Of course it's also possible that the Ukrainians themselves shot it down as a false flag op, but I think that less likely. It would require a level sophistication I haven't seen from this crowd in the past.

So, having shit the bed by losing Crimea (which honestly, nobody outside the region actually cares about), made a bloody mess by getting an airliner shot down, and most importantly, failing to get authority to sell the pipelines, Yatsenyuk was told, probably by Groysman, that he was done. The man basically said as much. Fortunately for him, he was given the opportunity to resign.

Anonymous Azimus July 24, 2014 10:49 PM  

Bob.k.mando
that would explain why they directed MH15 to reduce altitude by ~4000 feet.

"which still doesn't indicate that they fired the missile themselves rather than just baiting the rebs into it."

Your point got me thinking about how Ukraine lost a handful of planes and helicopters early, but then apparently adjusted tactics and the losses were curtailed. Could their tactical adjustment be they were human-shielding behind civilian aircraft? I forget the tactic exactly, but can't a plane "hide" in the radar shadow of another? I wonder if this is what the Ukrainain ATC data seizure was about, they put MH17 out in front of them like an old cow making a trail through a minefield. That seems much more plausible than a false flag to me, and the reb operators were too dumb to understand what happened.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 24, 2014 10:55 PM  

Putin visited Castro a couple weeks ago, did he not? By the way, the ability to understand international affairs is an ability given to very very few people, as this blog and its commenters have demonstrated in the last few days. While I will admit that anyone who understands that the Lusitania was a floating war zone hiding behind civilians is not completely ignorant - I will also point out that being a good logician is not equivalent to understanding the world. Putin and Castro had a good time together recently. There are bad Ukrainians. There are bad Russians. Sometimes soldiers drink too much vodka. An SA-11 should never be entrusted to a vodka loving loser, anymore than a meth addict should be allowed a position of responsibility. How many posters on this site have done a single little thing to bring the evil-doers to justice?

Anonymous Skip July 24, 2014 11:01 PM  

"Surely the Australians who have just sent across half the globe a C-17 packed with investigators and fully armed special police task force to remedy the situation must be some severely misguided lunatics."

Yes they are. We should not be involved. We should be staying the hell out. We have bigger problems (China, islam etc) to be focused on rather than some turf war half way around the world in a place no Australian can find on the map.

Anonymous Hunsdon July 24, 2014 11:02 PM  

Russian Defense Ministry asks some questions.

Anonymous zen0 July 24, 2014 11:02 PM  

How many posters on this site have done a single little thing to bring the evil-doers to justice?

As soon as we figure out who they are, we will get right on that, by golly!

Anonymous zen0 July 24, 2014 11:11 PM  

It is a good thing that the US never shot down a civilian airliner and lied about it as long as possible and beyond. Otherwise, they would look pretty hypocritical right now.

Now I know that some smartass is going to bring up Iran flight 655 in 1988, but to that possiblility, let me quote George H.W. Bush on the matter:

I will never apologize for the United States—I don’t care what the facts are.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 24, 2014 11:18 PM  

zenO - thank you for understanding my point. I was devastated when I read the other day that my vice president Biden, the pro-late-term-abortion plagiarist, stated that he had looked Putin in the eyes and told Putin he had no soul. Joe Biden, of all people, to say such a thing to another human being! I would not have voted for Biden in a million lifetimes, but I am still an American and I can still be embarrassed by the idiocy of our elected officials. Similarly, I respected Putin a lot more than I used to before I heard at second hand that he had laughed it up with the murderer and probable serial rapist Castro. These are deep waters and those of us who do not understand them should be grateful. That being said, the commenters on this site in the last few days have given many examples of prideful self-deception on international affairs. God told us in his good book that we were not supposed to judge - I assume he did not mean we were not to give our opinions, or that we were not to try to do our best,but he wants us to be humble about it. That lack of humility on this blogsite is, from the eternal and the only important viewpoint, more important than the lack of the necessary knowledge to bring evil-doers to justice.

Anonymous ZhukovG July 24, 2014 11:48 PM  

When the shoot down first happened, I thought the most likely cause was an accidental targeting by separatist forces.

However, as more information has been made available I am starting to swing toward the idea that a Ukrainian unit did it.

The Russians have been very forthcoming with information, the US has not.

We know the Ukrainian forces had BUK launchers in the area.

It is also safe to assume that the Kiev regime has only tenuous control of its armed forces. Many units are loyal to the Social Nationalists and to Timoshenko.

We also know that the Kiev regime has been rather insistent that Russia could invade them at any moment. This paranoia is wide spread throughout the Ukraine and it is used as a rallying point by the government.

So here are some possibilities:
1. Using an SU-25 for visual confirmation and targeting (so the BUK launcher wouldn't have to radiate). A faction of the Ukrainian military, without CIA approval, attempted to assassinate Vladimir Putin.

2. A drill was being held, using an SU-25 or even the airliner as a convenient mock hostile, and a live missile was accidentally launched.

3. A trigger happy, terrified of Russian attack, operator (who may or may not have been drunk), freaked out at an unexpected large aircraft and launched without authorization.

I am sure there are many other possibilities.

The resignation of the PM and his cabinet, may have been directed by the US as punishment for the disaster, now that CIA analysts have asertained the truth.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska July 24, 2014 11:50 PM  

"That lack of humility on this blogsite"

I think that may not be the best way to view it. I think you have to bear in mind that the culture of blogging in general, and political blogging in particular, can get sort of rough-and-tumble --- it's in the nature of this form of writing. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people here practice true humility in their real lives, and this is just sort of an imaginary clubhouse where people can discuss events and exchange viewpoints. You're probably right that this whole situation is weirder and deeper than most can fathom. I certainly don't understand it. I'm just heartsick that it's happening at all.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 24, 2014 11:50 PM  

Azimus July 24, 2014 10:49 PM
and the reb operators were too dumb to understand what happened.



i did the time-over-target calc in the last thread on this. 777 cruises at ~550mph or ~9 miles per minute. a 777 overflying a Buk will be inside the effective radar / engagement envelope for < 4min.

and that's ASSUMING that the airliner goes directly over the top of the Buk. the more miles off of center line that the airliner is, the shorter the chord that it's going to scribe across the engagement circle and the engagement difficulty skyrockets if it's +5 miles off centerline.

it's not a question of "dumb".

it's a question of, how much can you really expect a solo crew to accomplish when they've got 4 minutes or less to acquire radar contact, calculate possible engagement, fire missile and engage target before the liner leaves physical engagement area?

they've not got a whole lot of time to conduct IFF ops.

also, from their viewpoint, this was an active warzone. wtf would there be civvy aircraft in the area?


Azimus July 24, 2014 10:49 PM
but can't a plane "hide" in the radar shadow of another?


from a solo radar station? sure, just like a cop can't tag you with a radar gun if you're running behind a semi. multiple stations gets quite a bit more difficult.

but intentionally sheltering a warcraft behind a civvy craft is a war crime last i checked ....



bad rhetoric is bad logic July 24, 2014 10:55 PM
How many posters on this site have done a single little thing to bring the evil-doers to justice?



what have YOU done to 'bring the evil-doers to justice? take a selfie while holding a sign?

meanwhile, as i've pointed out before, Uke ATC is at a minimum criminally negligent here. you want to hang them, i'm fine with that.




bad rhetoric is bad logic July 24, 2014 11:18 PM
That being said, the commenters on this site in the last few days have given many examples of prideful self-deception on international affairs.

God told us in his good book that we were not supposed to judge -



so, in one sentence you JUDGE us as being "pridefully self-deceived" and in the very next sentence harangue us for judging people.

either you are trolling us by demonstrating your name through actions or you are profoundly stupid.

and, for the record, i have never been on Putin's side in this.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska July 25, 2014 12:03 AM  

"i have never been on Putin's side in this."

From the little I can understand, it doesn't seem like there is a side worth supporting. Smells like bad guys all around.

Russia annexing Crimea was heavy-handed but somewhat understandable. And besides, all they did was switch from one corrupt Slavic govt to another -- not exactly the Rape of Nanking. But the rest of this mess is just very sad. May Christ our Lord send an outcome that is peaceable and sensible.

Anonymous The other skeptic July 25, 2014 12:09 AM  

Russia annexing Crimea was heavy-handed but somewhat understandable.

Well, many Russians, and others, think that they were simply taking back what Khrushchev should never have given away. It would be like Obummer giving California to Mexico.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 12:21 AM  

Bob k mando - I really don't understand your hate. Please do not jump to conclusions - I am no less likely than anyone on the internet you might have encountered to have risked quite a lot in his life against evildoers (for the record, not that I expect you to believe it, I have actually done quite a lot - VFW, wounded in the line of duty, that sort of thing - but that is irrelevant, and unproveable, of course). In this particular instance, I do not think effective action is possible, because Nobody has Access to the Facts. If you read the last few posts and comments on this blog with an open heart you will see a lot of unjustified slander. If you think that is not true, please don't listen just to me - God has said that he has an always present Mechanism for Making this post-Adamic world a better world, and that is prayer. Please pray, read the Bible, and if you want to criticize me after that, please do so, the criticisms of a just man and a friend are like rain in a time of drought.

Anonymous Azimus July 25, 2014 12:52 AM  

bad rhetoric is bad logicJuly 25, 2014 12:21 AM
Bob k mando - I really don't understand your hate.


Off topic.

Blogger automatthew July 25, 2014 1:03 AM  

I really don't understand your hate. Please do not jump to conclusions - I am no less likely than anyone on the internet you might have encountered to have risked quite a lot in his life against evildoers (for the record, not that I expect you to believe it, I have actually done quite a lot - VFW, wounded in the line of duty, that sort of thing - but that is irrelevant, and unproveable, of course).

I smell an Israeli college student.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 1:10 AM  

automatthew - you (and possibly even your parents) were probably in grade school, at most, when I was fighting for your country on your behalf as a United States officer. Assuming you too were born in the United States, and not in Turkey or some such country, I hope God forgives you for insulting in such a cavalier way a better patriot than yourself . By the way, VFW is an American acronym it means Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Blogger Frank Brady July 25, 2014 1:19 AM  

@bad rhetoric is bad logic: So you don't think God should forgive people who live in Turkey? I'm sorry, but I don't understand what is your point?

Anonymous bob k. mando July 25, 2014 1:29 AM  

bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 12:21 AM
Bob k mando - I really don't understand your hate.



*snort*

this is "hate"?

you critique me, i'm going to critique you.


bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 12:21 AM
because Nobody has Access to the Facts.



i made first reply in this thread with third party facts that were being compiled before the shootdown occurred.

hence, they are not subject to Uke or Russ bias or Yank propaganda games. ( unless you're going full tin foil hat and asserting that all data was faked prior )

now, if you'd like to make specific indictments of particular assertions or citations, feel free to do so.

if you're just going to puke vague, mealy mouthed crap about how "nobody really knows anything" i'm just going to reply, "you think not, therefore you are not."

we don't REALLY know that Obama has opened the Mexican border. that's just them crazy, racist Fauxnews propagandists trying to bring our bestest president ever down. you should really pray and repent of your sins.

Anonymous bob k. mando July 25, 2014 1:35 AM  

Frank Brady July 25, 2014 1:19 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what is your point?



as i already pointed out, he is the very epitome of both bad logic and bad rhetoric.

study his example and learn therefrom.


"your country" and "your behalf" as a US officer does not preclude dual citizenship.

given that he doesn't seem to think that God's forgiveness extends to Turks ... it seems like an awfully jewish thing to say.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 1:36 AM  

Frank Brady - that was a reference to a frequent commenter here who named himself after a tennis player from Germany but who seems to be a Turk. He seems so often to be unattached to reality that forgiveness does not seem relevant (as opposed to hope for a greater appreciation of the truth). So I do not care when he says ridiculous things. God of course loves Turks just as much as he loves non-Turks. Saint Nicholas was a Turk, and I have Turkish friends. That is Christianity 101. By the way commenting here is hard work, it is so easy to be misunderstood.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 1:42 AM  

Bob K Mando - no dual citizenship, no more than Halsey, Leahy, King, Nimitz, Patton, Eisenhower, or Marshall. US all the way. Not to say that the Turks have not been brave - Korean War vet Jerry Pournelle has written at length about that.

Anonymous A Plate of Shrimp July 25, 2014 1:51 AM  

"Saint Nicholas was a Turk"

No he wasn't, it's a common retconning error. He lived in Anatolia before it was invaded by the Turks and got turned into Turkey.

Anonymous bad rhetoric is bad logic July 25, 2014 2:03 AM  

A Plate of Shrimp - Good point, but there are a lot of living and deceased Christians from the land called by mortal men Turkey, many of whom belong to what Catholics call the Communion of Saints or the Church Militant and whom Evangelicals call our deceased brothers and sisters in the Lord or our living brothers and sisters who have been saved. Romans 8 is relevant here, as well as all of the Epistle to the Ephesians.

Anonymous hungrytales July 25, 2014 6:31 AM  

@Mr. Stubby: sell your Russian propaganda fairy tales to dummy Americans, we in Poland know better: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+mishandling+the+mh17+crime+scene. We've got reports from Polish journalists arriving at the crime scene of being forced to accept stuff collected from the bodies of the victims (for whatever twisted reason? I don't know, ask your Russian friends for some insight in the Turanian civilization's rules of logic). It's nothing new. They did worse at the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash site in Smolensk.

@Skip: you should be proud of your Prime Minister's aggressive, no-bullshit, alpha stance. That's EXACTLY how you deal with the Russians. That's the only language they comprehend. And at the same time you should be ashamed of your own omega, turning tail between your legs attitude. The only thing it does is spreading load of disrespect for your innocent compatriots murdered by dumb Russian brutes who couldn't tell civilian airliner from Antonov AN-26.

Anonymous Titus Didius Tacitus July 25, 2014 7:56 AM  

"Surely the Australians who have just sent across half the globe a C-17 packed with investigators and fully armed special police task force to remedy the situation must be some severely misguided lunatics."

Skip "Yes they are. We should not be involved. We should be staying the hell out. We have bigger problems (China, islam etc) to be focused on rather than some turf war half way around the world in a place no Australian can find on the map."

Seconded. Australia does not need any part of this grief.

Blogger Tommy Hass July 25, 2014 1:24 PM  

"you should be proud of your Prime Minister's aggressive, no-bullshit, alpha stance. That's EXACTLY how you deal with the Russians. That's the only language they comprehend. And at the same time you should be ashamed of your own omega, turning tail between your legs attitude. The only thing it does is spreading load of disrespect for your innocent compatriots murdered by dumb Russian brutes who couldn't tell civilian airliner from Antonov AN-26."

Your stupidity is incredibly entertaining.

Blogger Frank Brady July 25, 2014 5:40 PM  

@hungrytales Are you a real person? Is your name symbolic (with the last part perhaps misspelled)?

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