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Friday, February 03, 2017

Never, ever, accept refugees

Last summer, a number of normally sensible people were shocked when I said that the European governments would be wise to sink the refugee ships that were crossing the Mediterranean. Most of those people now realize that the people of Europe would be much better off if their governments had rejected the ridiculous "it is moral to help poor defenseless refugees" argument and fulfilled their responsibility to defend their national borders.

But my opinion is not based on any heartlessness or cruelty, it is based on knowledge of history. As it happened, I've been reading Charles Oman's The Byzantine Empire, and the following incident caught my attention, presaging as it does the current situation. You will note that last summer was not the first time refugees in peril were permitted to cross a border, and as Oman's account suggests, it will not be the first time that the people whose governments betrayed them have paid a bitter price for that failure either.

Consider this heart-rending account of a people in dire straits through no fault of their own, but due to the unprovoked attack of a vicious foe. Wouldn't you be tempted to offer them refuge too?
About the year a.d. 372 the Huns, an enormous Tartar horde from beyond the Don and Volga, burst into the lands north of the Euxine, and began to work their way westward. The first tribe that lay in their way, the nomadic race of the Alans, they almost exterminated. Then they fell upon the Goths. The Ostrogoths made a desperate attempt to defend the line of the Dniester against the oncoming savages—“men with faces that can hardly be called faces—rather shapeless black collops of flesh with little points instead of eyes; little in stature, but lithe and active, skilful in riding, broad shouldered, good at the bow, stiff-necked and proud, hiding under a barely human form the ferocity of the wild beast.” But the enemy whom the Gothic historian describes in these uninviting terms was too strong for the Teutons of the East. The Ostrogoths were crushed and compelled to become vassals of the Huns, save a remnant who fought their way southward to the Wallachian shore, near the marshes of the Delta of the Danube.

Then the Huns fell on the Visigoths. The wave of invasion pressed on; the Bug and the Pruth proved no barrier to the swarms of nomad bowmen, and the Visigoths, under their Duke Fritigern, fell back in dismay with their wives and children, their waggons and flocks and herds, till they found themselves with their backs to the Danube. Surrender to the enemy was more dreadful to the Visigoths than to their eastern brethren; they were more civilized, most of them were Christians, and the prospect of slavery to savages seems to have appeared intolerable to them.

Pressed against the Danube and the Roman border, the Visigoths sent in despair to ask permission to cross from the Emperor. A contemporary writer describes how they stood. “All the multitude that had escaped from the murderous savagery of the Huns—no less than 200,000 fighting men, besides women and old men and children—-were there on the river bank, stretching out their hands with loud lamentations, and earnestly supplicating leave to cross, bewailing their calamity, and promising that they would ever faithfully adhere to the imperial alliance if only the boon was granted them.”
Who among you would be so heartless, so cruel, as to deny hundreds of thousands of desperate women and children refuge from some of the most savage warriors ever to slaughter the innocent in the recorded history of Man? Not the Roman Emperor, although he was not unmindful of the potential for trouble, and took the necessary precautions.
The proposal of the Goths filled Valens with dismay. It was difficult to say which was more dangerous—to refuse a passage to 200,000 desperate men with arms in their hands and a savage foe at their backs, or to admit them within the line of river and fortress that protected the border, with an implied obligation to find land for them. After much doubting he chose the latter alternative: if the Goths would give hostages and surrender their arms, they should be ferried across the Danube and permitted to settle as subject-allies within the empire.
Isn't that the correct moral choice? Provide them with refuge, but disarm them so they can't cause too much trouble? Isn't that what you would do, being both a good, moral person and a wise, cautious individual?
 The Goths accepted the terms, gave up the sons of their chiefs as hostages, and streamed across the river as fast as the Roman Danube-flotilla could transport them. But no sooner had they reached Moesia than troubles broke out. The Roman officials at first tried to disarm the immigrants, but the Goths were unwilling to surrender their weapons, and offered large bribes to be allowed to retain them: in strict disobedience to the Emperor's orders, the bribes were accepted and the Goths retained their arms. Further disputes soon broke out.... Fritigern, with many of his nobles, was dining with Count Lupicinus at the town of Marcianopolis, when some starving Goths tried to pillage the market by force. A party of Roman soldiers strove to drive them off, and were at once mishandled or slain. On hearing the tumult and learning its cause, Lupicinus recklessly bade his retinue seize and slay Fritigern and the other guests at his banquet. The Goths drew their swords and cut their way out of the palace. Then riding to the nearest camp of his followers, Fritigern told his tale, and bade them take up arms against Rome.

There followed a year of desperate fighting all along the Danube, and the northern slope of the Balkans. The Goths half-starved for many months, and smarting under the extortion and chicanery to which they had been subjected, soon showed that the old barbarian spirit was but thinly covered by the veneer of Christianity and civilization which they had acquired in the last half-century. The struggle resolved itself into a repetition of the great raids of the third century: towns were sacked and the open country harried in the old style, nor was the war rendered less fierce by the fact that many runaway slaves and other outcasts among the provincial population joined the invaders.
So, instead of the Goths being slaughtered and enslaved by the Huns, the Romans were slaughtered, their towns were destroyed, and their lands were laid waste. No one could possibly have seen that coming, right? It was still the moral thing to do, because refugees, right? Just wait, it gets better, and the ending is so flawlessly fitting that it reads more like an Aesopian fable than actual history.
In 378 a.d., the main body of the Goths succeeded in forcing the line of the Balkans; they were not far from Adrianople when the Emperor started to attack them, with a splendid army of 60,000 men. Every one expected to hear of a victory, for the reputation of invincibility still clung to the legions, and after six hundred years of war the disciplined infantry of Rome, robur peditum, whose day had lasted since the Punic wars, were still reckoned superior, when fairly handled, to any amount of wild barbarians....

Valens found the main body of the Goths encamped in a great “laager,” on the plain north of Adrianople. After some abortive negotiations he developed an attack on their front, when suddenly a great body of horsemen charged in on the Roman flank. It was the main strength of the Gothic cavalry, which had been foraging at a distance; receiving news of the fight it had ridden straight for the battle field. Some Roman squadrons which covered the left flank of the Emperor's army were ridden down and trampled under foot. Then the Goths swept down on the infantry of the left wing, rolled it up, and drove it in upon the centre. So tremendous was their impact that legions and cohorts were pushed together in hopeless confusion. Every attempt to stand firm failed, and in a few minutes left, centre, and reserve, were one undistinguishable mass. Imperial guards, light troops, lancers, auxiliaries, and infantry of the line were wedged together in a press that grew closer every moment.

The Roman cavalry saw that the day was lost, and rode off without another effort. Then the abandoned infantry realized the horror of their position: equally unable to deploy or to fly, they had to stand to be cut down. Men could not raise their arms to strike a blow, so closely were they packed; spears snapped right and left, their bearers being unable to lift them to a vertical position; many soldiers were stifled in the press. Into this quivering mass the Goths rode, plying lance and sword against the helpless enemy. It was not till forty thousand men had fallen that the thinning of the ranks enabled the survivors to break out and follow their cavalry in a headlong flight. They left behind them, dead on the field, the Emperor, the Grand Masters of the Infantry and Cavalry, the Count of the Palace, and thirty-five commanders of different corps.

The battle of Adrianople was the most fearful defeat suffered by a Roman army since Cannæ, a slaughter to which it is aptly compared by the contemporary historian Ammianus Marcellinus. The army of the East was almost annihilated, and was never reorganized again on the old Roman lines.
It would be just if the Obamas and Merkels of the world met similar fates at the hands of the refugees they saved. Only six years after permitting hundreds of thousands of poor desperate refugees to cross the river and reach the safety of Roman lands, the Emperor Valens and fifty thousand of his best soldiers were dead at their hands. Seventeen years later, Alaric the Goth ruled over the north, and "wandered far and wide, from the Danube to the gates of Constantinople, and from Constantinople to Greece, ransoming or sacking every town in his way till the Goths were gorged with plunder."

38 years after the Goths crossed the Danube, Alaric the Goth sacked Rome itself. One has to observe that it may not take 38 years this time.

And that, my dear bleeding heart moralists, is why you always sink the damn ships.

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176 Comments:

Blogger Alexander February 03, 2017 11:13 AM  

This might be the best post I've ever read on VD, and that's a high bar.

Blogger Sherwood family February 03, 2017 11:13 AM  

Absolutely right! This is why we read history so we can compare today's trends and fads against it lest we fall into the errors of those who went before who were, if not more wise, were at least wise enough to record their triumphs and their failures are a lesson to their posterity.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 11:13 AM  

Those Romans that died from the Visgoth depredations can rest in peace in the knowledge of how virtuous their death was.

Anonymous ODG February 03, 2017 11:16 AM  

So, what you're saying is, if they had only disarmed them BEFORE they crossed the Danube, it would have all worked out fine! /sarc

This is a hard thing to read, but absolutely critical to understand. I will be using this account on my reluctant, refugee-biased family members.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 11:18 AM  

This is why the globalist are doomed. They recognize no loyalty to anyone but themselves and their cause. They have no constituency among the people except those that live in their service. At some point the people will not tolerate their governments being used against them.

The vote will have to be taken away and the true totalitarian nature of the globalist revealed or else they will be replaced ala Brexit and Trump. Interesting times.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 11:22 AM  

One thing I wondered when reading this, what would have been the outcome if Rome and rallied to the aid of the Goths in Christian kinship?

What if Rome had sent the legions to aid the Goths in their struggle in the Goths land. Would we have had the same outcome of Jan Sobieski saving Christendom at Vienna or would Rome found itself in a duplicitous quagmire with no end as the US is in the Middle East? Probably would depend on how fast the legions came home after the won.

Blogger Dave February 03, 2017 11:25 AM  

But this time is different, dammit, don't be a hater.

Anonymous BBGKB February 03, 2017 11:27 AM  

But if we don't import people from shitistan at taxpayer expense and give them healthcare for life at taxpayer expense they will die. The Boston marathon bombers even got a grant for a car.

Blogger Alexander February 03, 2017 11:27 AM  

One hopes at least as the Emperor was dying among his legions, and the knowledge that many more of his cities would be sacked, he took solace in the fact that NOBODY could dare claim he was an anti-goth bigot.

Anonymous Edjamacator February 03, 2017 11:28 AM  

allyn71 wrote:One thing I wondered when reading this, what would have been the outcome if Rome and rallied to the aid of the Goths in Christian kinship?

Being allowed to come to safety and have their lives saved obviously didn't quite leave them very thankful or compassionate towards those that helped them. Why would anything else? Even if Rome saved them like you wonder, something else would probably have set them off.

Blogger Elizabeth February 03, 2017 11:33 AM  

Up until 1980, refugees needed sponsors to be responsible for them. A former co-worker told me that her father fled the failed revolt in Hungary in 1956, came to the US under the sponsorship of a Hungarian Church and was warned that he would be deported if he ever became a public charge.

I seem to remember that Palestinian refugees made trouble in Lebanon and, of course, members of the Frankfort School fled Nazi Germany and resettled in the US.

Anonymous Pathetic Peripatetic February 03, 2017 11:39 AM  

Outstanding post, VD! Few bother to read history, sadly. If more did, one might hope that A. Marcellinus' warning would be better known and appreciated by the gormless masses.

Anonymous Riverdale February 03, 2017 11:41 AM  

The Europeans could have been proactive by sinking the "refugee ships" while still in port. The fact is many of these boats are owned and run by NGO's with no loyalty to any sovereign nation. I wonder, is human trafficking a type of piracy?

Blogger Alexander February 03, 2017 11:42 AM  

I learned this lesson when I was a kid playing Starcraft. You'd have an ally get swarmed 3-1, and he'd desperately try to fly a command center or an overlord stuffed with drones to your base. You'd let him land, and then he'd immediately help himself to your minerals and insisting his newly minted platoon of tier 1 cannon fodder gave him the right to equal say regarding grand strategy.

From then on as soon as the squadron of fleeing refugees reached the perimeter after being warned he needed to rebuild elsewhere, the 'uncheck ally' box was hit with a VERY satisfying flourish.

Anonymous PinochetsChopperPilot February 03, 2017 11:44 AM  

That was powerful. I see it as inevitable unless and until the West (be it front lines like Germany or France) is willing to do things that have, up to this point, seemed unsavory (racist), or ill-mannered. Le Pen may be the last hope to turn things around. Like Trump, sometimes a few "defectors" are required to better contrast cost/benefits (Trump vs. Trudeau, Le Pen vs. Merkel), which may cause further defections to Alt-West/Right in Canada and Germany eventually.

I still think there's lots of room for more destruction from ME/NA before the majority of folks are ready to actually defend let alone go on the offensive. More blood will be shed is my guess. The boiling point seems to be as distant as uranium half-lifes...always approaching but never quite arrived.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 03, 2017 11:45 AM  

Gibbon covered this and I do believe he mentioned that they passed around refugee children in a bit of an attempt at Classical Era social engineering.

Anonymous fop February 03, 2017 11:46 AM  

Well at least Rome had some nice Goth restaurants.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 03, 2017 11:46 AM  

#4 my guess if you don't break their emotional defenses you are wasting your time.

Anonymous BBGKB February 03, 2017 11:51 AM  

I still think there's lots of room for more destruction from ME/NA before the majority of folks are ready to actually defend let alone go on the

Not more destruction but allowing reports of the destruction to spread. You are more likely to see a fake story of a moslem rescuing a kitten from a tree than their crimes in the (((media)))

Anonymous jack arcalon February 03, 2017 11:52 AM  

The sooner the mass killings start, the fewer people will die.

Blogger Joshua_D February 03, 2017 11:53 AM  

I mean, damn.

You know, I think I would pay money to see an illustrated an narrated version of this history. Showing maps, telling how the people moved, how the battles were fought, etc. If anyone knows of such a thing, let me know.

Excellent post.

Anonymous Azimus February 03, 2017 11:55 AM  

5. allyn71 February 03, 2017 11:18 AM
This is why the globalist are doomed. They recognize no loyalty to anyone but themselves and their cause. They have no constituency among the people except those that live in their service. At some point the people will not tolerate their governments being used against them.


Doomed to defeat, I potentially agree. But doomed as in shedding this earthly tent? I would tend to doubt it. Gone are the days when the emperor went into the field with his troops, to risk his person for his cause - they have layer after layer of apparatchiks, flaks, talking heads, and so forth to protect them from harm, even protect them from being known at all. A nearly unlimited supply of money buys them armies of throw-away fools that are willing enough to sell their souls for a nice car, a house in the Hamptons, or sitting at the anchor desk in front of the camera. Or, if not sell their souls, convince themselves that the propaganda is true and take the money. And while I would rejoice if Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer's smug face were defeated and left the public eye forever, the elite will just find some other moderately intelligent mouthpiece to do their bidding under a different brand if necessary.

The big-money elite will probably never pay for their crimes in this life anyway. Their path is stained with the blood of millions of dupes who served them, like toy pieces in a game. But the elites themselves, if they've lost the game, just start a new one with new toys. For this we should be vigilant.

It has taken an amazing effort and sacrifice (sometimes the ultimate sacrifice) on the part of tens of millions of people across the West, against a literally foaming-at-the-mouth insane opposition, to effect a significant disruption to the globalist plan in the last 2-3yrs. But so far it is only a disruption, a bump on the road, a tantrum in their eyes. They have been checked, and they are losing this particular game - but it's still a game, it's not serious to them. It's going to take years of dogged persistence and determination to hand them the real, lasting defeat of doom of which you speak. Determination and leadership. I think we have both in 2017. But I think the right, and productive responsible people in on the whole, want to meet their foe on the field of battle, "duke it out", win the day, and go home. The opposition doesn't have this antiquated view of change. They're into the 4th generation politics. To Vox's point from a few days ago, we need to learn to fight like them.

Good grief this is long.

Blogger Silly But True February 03, 2017 11:58 AM  

People have done exactly the opposite from what is needed. We do not need to take refugees from Huns from beyond the Volga and Don.

Rather we need the Don to unleash his new tartar horde upon the world.

Anonymous Dan February 03, 2017 12:02 PM  

14. Alexander
I wonder what % of alt-righters are gamers?

Anonymous Northern Observer February 03, 2017 12:06 PM  

The expected response is going to be that this is anecdotal and that there are numerous examples of the the host country reaping some benefits by allowing in refugees.


From the bible, two immediate contra-examples that can be expected would be Ruth into Israel and Joseph and Mary into Egypt.

Of course there's the matter of volume, but if you lead with 'never, ever' scale is hard to fall back on.

Anonymous ZhukovG February 03, 2017 12:07 PM  

But you see the Goths were 'White People', so they were literally Nazis. Completely unlike the virtuous 'People of Color' who only wish to share their superior, vibrant culture with the poor benighted people of Europe.

Blogger David Power February 03, 2017 12:11 PM  

And so went out a decree by the God Emperor, that carved in stone above every government building throughout the land, would be these words.


THE FIRST RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS GOVERNMENT IS THE PROTECTION OF OUR OWN PEOPLE.

Blogger Richard Stone February 03, 2017 12:14 PM  

"From the bible, two immediate contra-examples that can be expected would be Ruth into Israel and Joseph and Mary into Egypt."

Another interesting biblical tidbit. The Pharoah enslaved the Israelites when they became too many and prosperous in his land and he feared they would usurp his rule.

Anonymous Dan February 03, 2017 12:14 PM  

Every migraint culture crossed through Dacia: huns, goths, gepids, slavs, avars, yet none settled.
Why? Dacia didn't have shit. Same thing today with Romania. When some low iq migraints realised they mistakenly arrived in Romania and not in Germany they immediantly started crying.
When you gain wealth, fill the tv screens of third-world countries whith your women and promote easy life-styles then everyone is coming towards you.
The romans didn't manage to stop this, let's see if the current europeans can?

Anonymous BBGKB February 03, 2017 12:16 PM  

related: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/02/03/just-cant-make-this-stuff-up-italy-and-eu-strike-deal-to-pay-libya-to-keep-migrants-in-north-africa/

♦ America not taking Syrian refugees = Terrible Trump
♦ The EU not taking in Libyan refugees = Magnanimous EU.

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 12:19 PM  

Damned poetic.

But we're surrounded by people of the Third Kind:

First, there are those who can think through the logic of an action and see the consequences by force of intellect alone.
Second are those who can learn from the consequences that befell others.

Third are the assholes who must pee on the electric fence for themselves. Methinks the fence involved be charged with 600 volts, 200 amps. Snap, crackle & pop isn't just for breakfast.

OT: Mexifornio Delenda Est.
http://www.vdare.com/articles/federale-has-a-dream-suppress-sedition-with-the-aid-of-red-state-california

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 12:21 PM  

@20, had this social mood mania rolled over 20 years ago, much less horror and chaos would now be baked into the cake.

When the swan dive begins, it matters not how high the diver. The destination is the same. What changes is the velocity at which he hits the water.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 12:28 PM  

@22 Azimus

It has taken an amazing effort and sacrifice (sometimes the ultimate sacrifice) on the part of tens of millions of people across the West, against a literally foaming-at-the-mouth insane opposition, to effect a significant disruption to the globalist plan in the last 2-3yrs.

I agree to an extent but I don't think this is just a "bump in the road" to globalist plans. They are being disrupted because of the digital revolution and the networking capabilities this has enabled.

All their tools and armaments are antiquated, the traditional political parties and the ultra-national institutions they use to control people will be the next domino to fall. Fiat currency will be disrupted by crypto currency. All they have created to control people will come crumbling down. It won't come easy and without cost but with every passing day I become more convinced in this belief.

The internet is the Gutenberg printing press on steroids.

Blogger Rob February 03, 2017 12:34 PM  

Historically, the fall of civilizations have been preceded by mass-migrations.

Anonymous Northern Observer February 03, 2017 12:36 PM  

@28 "Another interesting biblical tidbit. The Pharoah enslaved the Israelites when they became too many and prosperous in his land and he feared they would usurp his rule."

To which they will respond that things went very well for the Egyptian hosts until they turned inhospitable.

And that things went quite a bit worse for other tribes that were even more inhospitable to the Israelite refugee horde. e.g. the Amalekites. Guaranteed they will compare 'waylay' to 'sinking ships'. Guaranteed.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 12:38 PM  

@10 Edjamacator

Being allowed to come to safety and have their lives saved obviously didn't quite leave them very thankful or compassionate towards those that helped them. Why would anything else? Even if Rome saved them like you wonder, something else would probably have set them off.

That is mostly what I thought but was trying to think of another alternative.

If the Goths homeland and people were preserved by aid of the Romans without the legions sticking around to "nation build" the Goths in the Roman image would it lead to a prosperous future for both nations?

Probably not because Barbarian.

Blogger Amateur Brain Surgeon February 03, 2017 12:42 PM  

While the alt right is feeling its oats, behind its back, and unremarked upon, is the fast and fatal failure of the God Emperor to have erected an America First wall around his mind and the Neo Cons have invaded and occupied it and now we are badgering Russia to quite Crimea and threatening Iran publicly.

Madness of the first order

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 12:45 PM  

Give a man a handout and he quickly expects more.

A rescued dog often makes a great companion. Rescued people apparently do not. The USA's Negro Fatigue is ample evidence that neither hand-outs nor hand-ups work. People aren't wired that way.

H. sapiens is a killer ape, the only animal on Planet Earth capable of killing at a distance. Somehow people keep forgetting that.

Anonymous Slen February 03, 2017 12:55 PM  

#32:

Yep... And we are rapidly approaching terminal velocity.

Anonymous Gen. Kong February 03, 2017 1:01 PM  

Obviously, what's needed are our own NGO's to purchase and man submarines with live torpedoes. They can be deployed against the rapefugee fleet and against any EUSSR or other naval vessels obeying orders from the genocidal criminals who rule their countries. The irony of all this is that firing upon the invading fleet was being discussed this long ago, but Berlusconi was probably just grand-standing like a Cuck wearing a nationalist mask.

Blogger allyn71 February 03, 2017 1:03 PM  

@37 While the alt right is feeling its oats, behind its back, and unremarked upon, is the fast and fatal failure of the God Emperor to have erected an America First wall around his mind and the Neo Cons have invaded and occupied it and now we are badgering Russia to quite Crimea and threatening Iran publicly.

I wouldn't be so quick to tie the God Emperor to that globalist bitch at the UN. Not sure she is speaking for him on this issue. Give it time, even the God Emperor has limits in time and space.

If they are enacting his will this is the first dumb thing he has done since the ascension of the cherry blossom throne. An external war will destroy is ability to wage the one he has undertaken domestically.

Blogger tz February 03, 2017 1:06 PM  

And these were Christians!

Blogger Duke Norfolk February 03, 2017 1:06 PM  

Brilliant historical lesson, that will be completely lost on those who really need to learn from it, of course.

Most people have no ability to truly learn from history. There's a tendency to think the current world is entirely different from historical times and a million reasons people can conjure up to ignore the lessons.

As dc.sunsets said, they have to pee on the electrical fence themselves. Alas. While the rest of us get caught in the fallout.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 03, 2017 1:09 PM  

Fortunately we don't have barbarians like that any more. Instead we get sudden jihad syndrome, like the guy who got shot outside the Louvre today. Attacking four soldiers with a knife is a losing proposition.

The current wave of colonists, rapefugees, are more like parasites than conquerors. Of course enough parasites will kill any host, so there's still a good case for keeping them out.

For centuries waves of horsemen came out of Asia, killing and conquering as they went, or they died trying. Now we have waves of gimmedats coming out of Africa and Asia, begging and demanding and of course raping as they go.

If confined to their home territory, the colonizers would be no threat at all, because they can't get organized enough to even take over their own countries. Or perhaps social elites have learned it's easier to just control home turf and send excess population to the West, than to actually go fight someone for more territory.

Whatever the reason, the current wave of colonizers are disgusting and parasitical rather than openly, violently, conquering. It is Camp of the Saints rather than Attilla the Hun.

Blogger pyrrhus February 03, 2017 1:16 PM  

I always wondered why no moslem country would accept even one refugee....

Blogger Jay February 03, 2017 1:22 PM  

Can someone please articulate the idea to the world that Jesus' command to "love your neighbour" only extends to interpersonal relationships, and NOT government/nation relations. Jesus had NO advice for such situations.

Blogger John S February 03, 2017 1:28 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Robert Divinity February 03, 2017 1:28 PM  

Fantastic retelling, thank you.



18:

Gibbon covered this and I do believe he mentioned that they passed around refugee children in a bit of an attempt at Classical Era social engineering.

Thanks, I couldn't recall the previous place I read this account. The Roman nobles actually virtue signaled with the adopted barbarian children (they did that quite a bit after adoption became law), and if memory serves Emperor Valens did a little moral preening before admitting the Visigoths.

19:

You are more likely to see a fake story of a moslem rescuing a kitten from a tree than their crimes in the (((media)))

Merkel is just as busy forcing the social media holes shut as her invitees are forcing other holes open.

22:

They're into the 4th generation politics

Trump has shown how to overcome that very real fact--move so fast they can't react to the last loss.

36:

If the Goths homeland and people were preserved by aid of the Romans without the legions sticking around to "nation build" the Goths in the Roman image would it lead to a prosperous future for both nations?

Bill Kristol approved this message.

37:

the fast and fatal failure of the God Emperor to have erected an America First wall around his mind and the Neo Cons have invaded and occupied it and now we are badgering Russia to quite Crimea and threatening Iran publicly

That along with the pro-Saudi saber rattling against Iran has my attention as well, but so far the GE has proved all my fears misplaced. I suspect there will be some grand bargain with Netanyahu where recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capitol is traded for a suspension of settlement building; what we won't see is Trump kicking his fat Jew ass over the Jewish support of ISIS.

38:

H. sapiens is a killer ape, the only animal on Planet Earth capable of killing at a distance. Somehow people keep forgetting that.

Despite the daily reminders, too.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 03, 2017 1:32 PM  

This is an example of the current wave of colonizers. Woman from Nigeria with four IVF-conceived children wanted to birth them in 'Merica but wound up in Britland instead.

The cost for her medical adventure? 500,000 pounds sterling. Yeah, the West can surely afford lots more women like that.

The Goths burned down cities, making the uninhabitable. The current colonizers squat in their own filth in cities, ultimately making them uninhabitable. Camp of the Saints is still destruction.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper February 03, 2017 1:36 PM  

I did note linked from the Reich nonsense article that USA Today is now calling the .Alt Right "Ultranationalists" . Its a compliment of course but its not really the case.

The .Alt Right are the regular nice guy nationalists. If the Ultras ever show up the media will be too terrified to report on them.

Blogger John S February 03, 2017 1:39 PM  

You know, I think I would pay money to see an illustrated an narrated version of this history. Showing maps, telling how the people moved, how the battles were fought, etc. If anyone knows of such a thing, let me know.

Dan Carlin did a Hardcore History episode (more of a short audiobook at 4 hours long) that covers this period. He's a damned good storyteller too.

Thor's Angels.


Blogger Joshua_D February 03, 2017 1:41 PM  

Thanks John S. I'll check it out.

Anonymous Henry Havelock February 03, 2017 1:44 PM  

Interesting to note how the historiography has changed over the years since Sir Charles Oman wrote this book (1892).

There's a school of historians like Julia Smith and Walter Goffart who argue that the barbarian invasions weren't actually invasions at all and that they were all just fine and great and everyone was enriched and had a bloody great time. Goffart's line is that the western empire didn't really fall after all. He teaches at Yale.

Bryan Ward-Perkins and Peter Heather have done excellent anti-revisionist work. Ward-Perkins in particular incorporates a lot of archaeological evidence that wasn't around when Oman was writing.

OpenID randkoch February 03, 2017 1:49 PM  

This one definitely goes into the Keep file.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky February 03, 2017 1:50 PM  

The scenario with the Goths that Vox laid out came on the cusp of the Dark Ages, a period of civilizational and demographic collapse. My contention has been that we very well may be on the cusp of another one. This belief in a Hegelian Wheel of Progress, the inexorable upward March Of History, really is nothing more than a religious hope of the Left. It doesn't work like that. Civilizations have fallen. At times, history has STOPPED, as what happened in the Dark Ages, the so-named hard-to-see-into 'saeculum obscurum', which left little trace or record. People take it as a given, as a going assumption, that they'll always have cheap fuel, easy food, handy clothing, and the like. But look out.

After the Romans left Britain, it would take another one thousand year before running water in people's homes reappeared on the island.

Blogger Robert Coble February 03, 2017 1:51 PM  

If you're going to go down the historical Biblical road. . .

PART I:

Where did the Pharoah get the idea of enslaving the rapidly growing hordes of Israelites (over 2 million of them in the land of Goshen)?

The original band of Israelite tribes went to Egypt as a family of 70 in response to a famine, and were taken in because they were Joseph's family.

Genesis 46 Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 So Jacob set out from Beersheba; and the sons of Israel carried their father Jacob and their children and their wives in the wagons that Pharaoh had sent to carry him. 6 And they took their livestock and the possessions which they had acquired in the land of Canaan and came to Egypt, Jacob and all his descendants with him. 7 His sons and his grandsons, his daughters and his granddaughters, and all his descendants he brought with him to Egypt.

26 All the persons who came with Jacob into Egypt—who were his direct descendants, not counting the wives of [Jacob or] Jacob’s sons, were sixty-six persons in all, 27 and the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in Egypt, were two. All the persons of the house of Jacob [including Jacob, and [d]Joseph and his sons], who came into Egypt, were seventy.

Hardly a problem with the new refugees! There's onnly 70 of them. What possible harm could they cause those wonderful Egyptians who opened their hearts and lands to them?

Blogger Robert Coble February 03, 2017 1:53 PM  

PART II:


What did Joseph do to the Egyptian people for their generosity and open borders?

Genesis 47 Amplified Bible (AMP)

13 Now [in the course of time] there was no food in all the land, for the famine was distressingly severe, so that the land of Egypt and all the land of Canaan languished [in destitution and starvation] because of the famine. 14 Joseph gathered all the money that was found in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan [in payment] for the grain which they bought, and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh’s house. 15 And when the money was exhausted in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came to Joseph and said, “Give us food! Why should we die before your very eyes? For our money is gone.” 16 Joseph said, “Give up your livestock, and I will give you food in exchange for your livestock, since the money is gone.” 17 So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and he gave them food in exchange for the horses and the flocks and the herds and the donkeys; and he supplied them with food in exchange for all their livestock that year. 18 When that year was ended, they came to him the next year and said to him, “We will not hide from my lord [the fact] that our money is spent; my lord also has our herds of livestock; there is nothing left in the sight of my lord but our bodies and our lands. 19 Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land in exchange for food, and we and our land will be servants to Pharaoh. And give us seed [to plant], that we may live and not die, and that the land may not be desolate.” 20 So Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for every Egyptian sold his field because the famine was severe upon them. So the land became Pharaoh’s. 21 And as for the people, he relocated them [temporarily] to cities from one end of Egypt’s border to the other. 22 Only the land of the priests he did not buy, for the priests had an allotment from Pharaoh, and they lived on the amount which Pharaoh gave them, so they did not sell their land. 23 Then Joseph said to the people, “Look, today I have bought you and your land for Pharaoh; now, here is seed for you, and you shall plant the land. 24 At harvest time [when you reap the increase] you shall give one-fifth of it to Pharaoh, and four-fifths will be your own to use for seed for the field and as food for you and those of your households and for your little ones.” 25 And they said, “You have saved our lives! Let us find favor in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh’s servants.” 26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt—valid to this day—that Pharaoh should have the fifth part [of the crops]; only the land of the priests did not become Pharaoh’s.

Blogger Robert Coble February 03, 2017 1:54 PM  

PART III:

[What are the comparative breeding rates between the native stock and the refugees?]

Exodus 1 Amplified Bible (AMP)

Israel Multiplies in Egypt

1 Now these are the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob; each came with his household: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All the descendants of Jacob were seventy people; Joseph was [already] in Egypt. 6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation, 7 but the Israelites were prolific and increased greatly; they multiplied and became extremely strong, so that the land was filled with them.

8 Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph [nor the history of his accomplishments]. 9 He said to his people, “Behold, the people of the sons of Israel are too many and too mighty for us [they greatly outnumber us]. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, so that they will not multiply and in the event of war, join our enemies, and fight against us and escape from the land.” 11 So they set taskmasters over them to oppress them with hard labor.

DANG! I didn't learn THAT in my Churchian upbringing!

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana

If it please you, oh mighty Pharoah Trump, deal with these people according to what they have done unto others throughout their history.

Any volunteers for Federal taskmaster positions?

Anonymous Locke February 03, 2017 1:54 PM  

Thank you. Fight or be conquered.

Blogger Saver February 03, 2017 1:56 PM  

As King Solomon rightfully penned, there is nothing new under the sun.

Great post, Mr. Day.

Blogger Harris February 03, 2017 1:57 PM  

Jay wrote:Can someone please articulate the idea to the world that Jesus' command to "love your neighbour" only extends to interpersonal relationships, and NOT government/nation relations. Jesus had NO advice for such situations.

I'm a devout Christian, so don't take this wrong, but...

The Great Commission to go into all the world and make disciples of nations is the exact OPPOSITE of allowing refugees to come into your own nation. The whole concept of being a missionary is to insert yourself into a foreign society, and change the very nature of it. Christianity has been very successful doing this from it's inception. Contrast that with Judaism, which has always been insular and exclusive.

The net result of allowing foreigners to come into your lands is that you risk them changing the nature of your society. Christianity has relied upon that to expand throughout the last 2000 years. Now, our Western nations, having cast off the crudeness of Christian tradition, is receiving "missionaries" from the various foreign nations of the world instead of sending missionaries out. It is therefore not surprising that it is now OUR societies being put at risk of irreversible change.

We've lost the strength of our beliefs and the strength of our Christian societies by discarding Christ. And we are ripe for plunder and subversion by other ideologies that are stronger than the Darwinian hedonistic nihilism that has replaced Christianity as the dominant organizing force in the West.

Anonymous Henry Havelock February 03, 2017 1:57 PM  

@55

The persistence of this Whiggish vision of historical progress is one of the great puzzles. Sir Herbert Butterfield absolutely demolished it as long ago as 1931. Historical teleology totally permeates Western culture. "It's the current year!" is the most obvious every day manifestation. It's one of the key tenets of the New Secular Religion that the armies of goodthink hold dear.

The common man in Roman Britain had a higher material standard of living than the Anglo-Saxon kings that followed.

Blogger Sheila4g February 03, 2017 2:08 PM  

Drove past local mosque doing errands this morning. Group of about 2 dozen white women waving signs reading "Love Trumps Hate."

I hate people.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus February 03, 2017 2:15 PM  

Pssssh, who needs to learn from history? Reading is for sissies anywise.

Blogger slarrow February 03, 2017 2:16 PM  

Slightly OT: A guy who writes under the handle Dystopic (and apparent VP reader) had a great article related to this topic called "How To Defeat Weaponized Empathy":

http://thedeclination.com/how-to-defeat-weaponized-empathy/

Basic premise is that all these pictures and images are designed to take advantage of your natural empathy and put that in service of the other's narrative through direct, dishonest emotional appeal. His article suggests a direct approach, but I also like the fear element of Vox's historical example.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook February 03, 2017 2:17 PM  

But #DiversityIsOurStrength

Blogger Cail Corishev February 03, 2017 2:22 PM  

Drove past local mosque doing errands this morning. Group of about 2 dozen white women waving signs reading "Love Trumps Hate."

White women hanging around a mosque? That sounds like a problem that will soon solve itself. Although maybe that's what they're hoping for.

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 2:37 PM  

Yes probably his best post. It drives home the fact that we live in a dog eat dog world.

But the situation is even more complicated that that historic example due to the fact that the court of our equivalent of Valens is infested with an alien race of man that whispers into the peoples ears of the need to welcome the goths (arabs)

And soon, the Huns (africans).

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 2:41 PM  

Never forget, the jews have the same primitive schiz brain as their MENA and black shock troops. They are the only tribal barbarian race of man, as far as I'm aware that selected for high IQ. And it isn't quant autism IQ, but entropy in their social sense and verbal ability.

The jews are high IQ berbers.

They want to dominate, pillage and destroy, just like their dog eat dog ancient middle eastern pressure cooker selected for.

For them, moral revelation, is another mind meld tool.

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 2:46 PM  

@62 Exactly. Others criticize it, but I like the tl;dr version of Moldbug's analysis, planting the seeds of today's Theocratic Lefist-Progressivist-Retard Cult in the Reformation, the Levelers, Cromwell, the Whigs, Marxism, etc., etc. They're all out to be God, making Mankind better (than the proles wish to be.)

I suspect that mythologies supporting what became the Gnostic Heresy go back to the dawn of humanity. We live our entire lives within stories, our own and that of our self-professed tribe or herd, and stories have always existed to "explain" the unknown (or unknowable) usually in ways that benefit those in power.

Every culture on Earth no doubt feels that "their" story is an heroic adventure, ending in their being crowned king, or becoming One with their omnipotent deity.

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 2:49 PM  

@69 They are the only tribal barbarian race of man, as far as I'm aware that selected for high IQ. I heard it really wasn't their choice.

The modern Ashkenazim may be the Western world's largest example of animal husbandry applied to H. sap. Seen from this standpoint, our ancestors really screwed the pooch.

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 2:49 PM  

When the germanics took in the jew refugees from the Middle East, they may as well have signed over the house, women, children and dog.

What a spectacle that such a small proportion of the world's peoples have such awesome control over the fates of billions more whites, arabs, blacks, slavs, and so on.

The real '1%'.

Mick Jagger's sympathy for the devil comes to mind - the jew was literally there during the egyptian plagues, the intrigue in the corridors of Rome, the Bolshevik terror, Torquemedas Inquisition, Hitler's last stand and the disintegration of the United States.

I sometimes think - there's almost something malevolently mystical in the Jew's power to constantly sabotage, undermine, drain and eventually annhilate its hosts. The Locust People.

Anonymous Rather, Not February 03, 2017 2:50 PM  

Vox, valuable insights. We know the Roman border, what was left of it after the Goths tore it up behind their lines could not stop the Huns. If the Romans held the line and refused to allow entrance to the Goths (either letting the Huns finish the job, or slaughtering the Goths who tried to force the border), do you think the Huns could have forced the relatively intact Danube border?

It would seem that the answer would be yes, the Huns could have defeated the enervated Romans. We would have a different history, but not a radically different one. It would have been different barbarian horde who sacked Rome.

(Also, couldn't catch the trade darkstream live, but very, very much appreciated the replay. Thank you. Thank you very much.)

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable February 03, 2017 2:51 PM  

Northern Observer wrote:Of course there's the matter of volume, but if you lead with 'never, ever' scale is hard to fall back on.

"Universal" is a straw man. "Ubiquitous" is observably true, and sufficient for decision-making.

A.B. Prosper wrote:The .Alt Right are the regular nice guy nationalists. If the Ultras ever show up the media will be too terrified to report on them.

If the Ultras ever show up, the media will be dead or in hiding.

Anonymous BBGKB February 03, 2017 2:53 PM  

But #DiversityIsOurStrength

Lamestream news is ignoring a moslem who attacked a Miami adult store with a pipe threatening another PULSE

http://www.local10.com/news/crime/man-swinging-pipe-at-adult-video-store-in-miami-accused-of-threatening-police

Abdelkhaliq said) he was an Arab and he was going to kill all officers,” the police report said.

Abdelkhaliq “screamed that the Orlando massacre was going to be nothing compared to what he was getting ready to do” and that he had access to AK-47s and all types of weapons, the report said.

Pssssh, who needs to learn from history? Reading is for sissies anywise. NotAllFaggotsAreLikeThat IKAGO


If the Goths homeland and people were preserved by aid of the Romans without the legions sticking around to "nation build"

Whose troops would be more expendable the natives or the legions? Even if equally expendable the natives would know places to hide/run to better. Think goblins vs orcs vs Hobjews in Wiggam Fensboro

Obviously, what's needed are our own NGO's to purchase and man submarines with live torpedoes.

A 50 cal rifle will sink anything that the refusegees come on. You could likely make due with a mosin nagant.

A rescued dog often makes a great companion. Rescued people apparently do not.

The surest way to lose a friend is to let them stay in your guest bedroom when they have no where else to go. Once they get back on their feet you will only be a reminder of their failure.

This one definitely goes into the Keep file.

There is more lessons of history in this post than I received k-12 in public school.

Anonymous Athor Pel February 03, 2017 2:54 PM  

" 55. Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky February 03, 2017 1:50 PM
. on the cusp of the Dark Ages, a period of civilizational and demographic collapse. My contention has been that we very well may be on the cusp of another one. ...
in the Dark Ages, ...
After the Romans left Britain, it would take another one thousand year before running water in people's homes reappeared on the island."



Please stop it with the Dark Ages bull crap. Those days were not dark. They only became dark in our imaginations because Roman loving historians like Gibbon wrote of them that way.

It's the Middle Ages. And even that name contains a seed of Renaissance chauvanism.

Gah, freakin' Rome lovers. Bunch of statists pining for the good old days that never were.

We wouldn't have a Renaissance or an industrial revolution without the middle ages. Gibbon didn't like the middle ages because most of what was written was produced by The Church.

But yeah, a world spanning crapstorm is coming. Hoard your toilet paper.

Anonymous Gen. Kong February 03, 2017 2:55 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:

… The .Alt Right are the regular nice guy nationalists. If the Ultras ever show up the media will be too terrified to report on them.


If the the real ultras show up the (((fake news))) won't be alive to report on them at all. The media are enemy combatants and perfectly legitimate targets for any and all actions. No warning, no quarter, no mercy.

Blogger dc.sunsets February 03, 2017 2:58 PM  

Only once social mood turns down in earnest will we get this party started. Until then, there's simply too much "We Are The World" New-age haze left in people's minds. In the meantime it's simply maddening.

We are SOOOO overdue for this 35 year social mood rally (capped by an historic mania) to break down. When it does, people are going to wake up like Rip Van Winkle, realizing that
1. The IOU's they counted on are wallpaper.
2. Diversitopia is hell.
3. There are no "deserving poor."
4. Their own cupboard is nearly bare.
5. Their very lives depend on instituting brutal Lifeboat Ethics.
6. The people who sold them this bill of goods need to hang.

Add several billion rounds of ammunition, a brittle system for distributing food, mix and wait for detonation.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable February 03, 2017 3:03 PM  

DANG! I didn't learn THAT in my Churchian upbringing!

Yeah, what you're ignoring here is that Moses VOLUNTEERED to take the whole gang and leave peaceably more than half a dozen times. Pharaoh wouldn't let him because the Egyptians liked having the slave labour.

Too bad when the facts don't fit your narrative.

Blogger pyrrhus February 03, 2017 3:06 PM  

@76. In fact, there was more personal freedom during the early Middle Ages than at any time since. Kings took absolutely no interest in local matters, and local lords didn't have much interest either, apart from maintaining the peace.

Anonymous WaterBoy February 03, 2017 3:09 PM  

Related: Texas Gov. Abbott cuts funding to Austin over sanctuary city policies.

This action might make a good discussion topic for a Darkstream.

Otherwise, let Austin go the way of Rome.

Blogger SteveK February 03, 2017 3:10 PM  

Personally, I wouldn't say never. If the refugees shared similar key values as my countrymen did, or the same Christian faith as my countrymen then I would consider it.

Sooner or later one side in a battle is found to be on the brink of utter defeat. No country is obligated to take them in and rescue them just because they are about to be defeated. That's what liberals want you to think.

Sometimes it is wise to take them in and hang them, or take them in and imprison them - or sometimes it's wise to let them be defeated where they stand.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 03, 2017 3:21 PM  

Then there's another form of colonizing parasite, the game players who use flaws in the host culture against the culture.
Good that clock boy's case exploded in court, his family must pay court costs, and they've moved to some sheikdom in the Persian Gulf.

Bad that this kind of setup was taken seriously in the first place, due to leftard politics.

Blogger pyrrhus February 03, 2017 3:22 PM  

@41. Nikki Haley is extremely stupid, but even she should have understood that you don't talk without WH approval. All this neoconnerie is extremely concerning...

Blogger pyrrhus February 03, 2017 3:24 PM  

@82 No, unless they are kinsmen, it is never sensible to let them into your country, let alone give them welfare and citizenship...China's policy is Han Chinese only. Japan very similar...

Anonymous genericviews February 03, 2017 3:30 PM  

Not all Goths are like that.

Blogger Robert Coble February 03, 2017 3:35 PM  

@ 79. 5343 Kinds of Deplorable

Are you incapable of reading English? Or are you just too lazy to look it up and confirm it? I gave you the Biblical verses; there is no "narrative"that I'm pushing. What's your alternative "narrative"; are you claiming the Egyptians enslaved themselves merely because they were starving, and so they deserved to be slaves? If so, you not only are ignorant but also "deplorably" stupid. Perhaps you will consider adding at least +1 to your deplorableness just for that.

I think highly of God's chosen people, especially a certain "Rabbi" who died a couple of thousand years ago, and am perfectly fine with the Jews having their own country with defensible BORDERS AND being a beacon of light to the rest of the world - from THERE.

I also think that there are a disproportionate number of JINOs in other countries fomenting all kinds of problems for the native population for their own tribal aggrandizement. George Soros comes immediately to mind.

I can hear your whine now - NAJALT. So what?!? I. DON'T. CARE.

Blogger Katechon February 03, 2017 3:41 PM  

Absolutely deplorable.

Look at the Jewish diaspora :

They fled tsarist Russia at the end of the nineteenth century and took refuge in Germany. It was only because they were so grateful to the German nation that they convinced England and the USA to attack Germany during WW I, in exchange for the Palestinian protectorate, as we know from the Balfour Déclaration and the testimony of Benjamin Freeman.

Then many jews fled to the USA during the Third Reich. It's only because they're so grateful to this nation that they've been brainwashing the goyim lemmings into race-mixing and bailing out jews-owned banks.

Thanks jews. Glad we took you as refugees.

Blogger Kona Commuter February 03, 2017 3:44 PM  

The leaders on the Left like to think of themselves as academics & smarter than everyone else. Yet we see them repeating history (or at least rhyming with it).

The violent politically motivated riots? EXACTLY like Germany pre WWII (I mean, even down to the degenerate sexuality). Then there are the examples of *every* communist (or variant of) nation example of massacring people even those on their own side.

Large scale migration has *always* resulted in conflict. The conflicts are always very ugly.

Here in Australia we have "refugees" that once they gain Australian citizenship proceed to return to where they fled. Sometimes to cause trouble. My co-worker was a refugee. He has returned multiple times to "His country". Aussie in name only

Nope. It's all been done before. We are in interesting times but they're not unique.

Blogger VD February 03, 2017 3:50 PM  

We know the Roman border, what was left of it after the Goths tore it up behind their lines could not stop the Huns. If the Romans held the line and refused to allow entrance to the Goths (either letting the Huns finish the job, or slaughtering the Goths who tried to force the border), do you think the Huns could have forced the relatively intact Danube border?

Considering how the Goths wreaked havoc on the Romans and the Huns still didn't cross, and that the Romans successfully resisted the Huns on more than one occasion, there is little doubt that they would have held the river border if the Huns had slaughtered the Goths.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 03, 2017 3:54 PM  

Athor Pel wrote:Please stop it with the Dark Ages bull crap. Those days were not dark. They only became dark in our imaginations because Roman loving historians like Gibbon wrote of them that way.

It's the Middle Ages. And even that name contains a seed of Renaissance chauvanism.


The Dark Ages are called dark because we can't see into them. There are very very few records of anything happening in Western Europe.
And yes, it was a collapse. Living standards collapsed because the economic systems of the Romans that depended on safe and easy travel, could not be maintained. Population collapsed because of the uncertainty and poverty of the times. In Roman Britain, Latin proficiency and literacy was a commonplace, expected. In post-Roman Britain, any literacy at all was most uncommon, and few outside of monastics and priests understood Latin.

Even technology went away. There were wide areas of Europe that lost the knowledge of pottery, for God's sake. Pottery was technology that their ancestors had practiced for literally thousands of years.

You may not like it, but the collapse was real and was devastating for the peoples caught in it.

Rather, Not wrote:If the Romans held the line and refused to allow entrance to the Goths (either letting the Huns finish the job, or slaughtering the Goths who tried to force the border), do you think the Huns could have forced the relatively intact Danube border?

It would seem that the answer would be yes, the Huns could have defeated the enervated Romans. We would have a different history, but not a radically different one. It would have been different barbarian horde who sacked Rome.


Given that they crossed the Danube on at least two occasions, attacked both Canstantiople and Rome (although both attacks failed), I would have to say that ultimately, the Gothic invasion doesn't bear on the question and that no, an Empire that hadn't lost it's army at Adrianople would not have been weaker.
The Huns were both allies and enemies of Rome. They were recruited as mercenaries for Roman civil wars, and used against the Goths and other Germanic tribes. Overall, relations were pretty cordial, until Rome weakened in the time of Attila. At least for two competing and neighboring empires.

Anonymous Damn Crackers February 03, 2017 3:59 PM  

Rome was never the same after Alaric started building all those Hot Topics along the Danube.

Anonymous Ages February 03, 2017 4:03 PM  

Charles Krauthammer had an interesting observation about this on Fox yesterday. His view is that, basically, the European former colonial powers are still acting on their ancient and deep-seated compulsion to "domesticate the savages."

Anonymous Eduardo February 03, 2017 4:11 PM  

Snidely

However Snidely-san they started calling Dark Ages because the 18th century were the enlighted ones and wused ideas from Ancient Times they decided that the MIDDLE, was DARK.

Middle ages dindu nuffin.

Anonymous BluePony February 03, 2017 4:13 PM  

FREE MEDITERRANEAN CRUISES FOR REFUGEES!

Come one, come all! Standing room only! Refugees (and any Europeans who welcomed them with open arms and cakes and rainbow banners) only.

Departure: Daily at 8 am
Return: mumble mumble something mumble

Anonymous One Deplorable DT February 03, 2017 4:14 PM  

Vox just doesn't get it. The Romans didn't have MagicDirt(TM). If we accepted the Goths their children would have become good, conservative Republican voters.

Anonymous Eduardo February 03, 2017 4:26 PM  

You know, Europe sort of complain about immigrant ghettos. Dude all you have to do is go Rio de Janeiro on that XD. There is a special operations Battalion (BOPE) inside the local police and their job was to stop the ever growing crime in the city, especially related to drug traficking. THe drugdealers all inhabited the Favelas on the Hills.

As soon as the Battalion was created they needed to be put to the test and were deployed against one of the Favelas in the Hills that surround the city. They invaded the Favela and within a week all cartel members were dead or arrested. The Battalion instead of raising a flag or going on TV to talk about the success, they just decided to change their HQ to the occupied Hill. It is the only hill in the city where no drugdealer even dares operating.

Send your troops to train with those guys, after some weeks they will tap into their inner Barbarians and within a week your police will have taken your countries back and routed the enemy.

"Faca na caveira"

Blogger Happy LP9 February 03, 2017 4:29 PM  

LGBT: Sexy L.eggins, G.uns, B.orders (B.urgers) and Anti SJW T.actics.

To sink the boats is to protect yourself, its an act of self defense. I wish I were wrong. In our era of tech and over saturation modernity rule, cultures, norms are in disarray as feminism+equality equates to violence therefore the only common sense remaining is the alt right - to remain of the most clarity with great faith and understanding historical patterns as Vox explained here.

4 F's Kill; the Fork, Feminism, sudden jihad syndrome Foreigners and Feelings.

Anonymous Drummergirl February 03, 2017 4:31 PM  

Great post.

@43 "Most people have no ability to truly learn from history. There's a tendency to think the current world is entirely different from historical times and a million reasons people can conjure up to ignore the lessons."

This. Human nature is evil and self-destructive. Has there ever been a time in history when people weren't fighting and killing each other? The peace and prosperity in America have made us stupid and soft. I am greatly encouraged by the God Emperor's win and I hope he continues to reign ruthlessly. It's going to take a lot to stem the tide of destruction headed our way.

Blogger Happy LP9 February 03, 2017 4:33 PM  

America cannot handle anymore illnesses brought in by immigrants, neither can the EU. To hell with the Stockholm syndrome.

I recall Coast to Coast Radio in 2005 being unable or unwilling to explain why cars in France were nursing its France importing that which is not incompatible with the French.

Jon Rapport owns no more fake news (URL since 2004 or 2005), Jon reported about JizlamIslam invading the EU back then.

Blogger Cecil Henry February 03, 2017 4:33 PM  

Canadian thought police think its their place to censor and control internet speech now. They are mimicking Europe.


Be honest: 'diversity' makes free speech impossible

Diversity means everyone MUST think alike about 'diversity'.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-police-hate-incidents-quebec-city-shooting-1.3960085

Anonymous Northern Observer February 03, 2017 4:55 PM  

@58 Robert Coble

*"DANG! I didn't learn THAT in my Churchian upbringing!"*

But what is THAT? They are most likely to point out that:
- Pharaoh #1 came out **way** ahead after letting them in.
- Pharaoh #2 got rekt after turning on them.
- The Egyptians came out ahead after letting them in, i.e. they didn't all starve to death (always a big win) and they ended being allowed to keep 80% of their crops.
- everything seems to have gone well for both Egypt and the Israelites until the new Pharaoh fucked everything up.

What is the lesson in the story that the Churchians are missing?

Even a translation that suggests that the new Pharaoh was right and not just paranoid or delusional would be awesome.

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 5:12 PM  

The hate speech bans only work not because of media mind control rays, but academia.

Thats the even bigger mind control racket of Zion. In young children's minds, their knowledge and the images they associate with white tribalism, patriotism and nationalism are anchored to 'bad feelz'. The jew has been systematically plotting and planning this for years.

In case you haven't noticed, this is their final assault. Miscegenation, deviance, open borders and the dying and replacing of whites is openly celebrated in their media.

It comes down to this!

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 5:15 PM  

Trumpy has to publicly kiss Zions ass with endorsing the settlement building, bullying Iran and letting Wall Street go back to their predation business model...worthy trades if he thinks he can get away with sealing the border and breaking their mind control rays. But if he doesn't succeed, we may be worse off!

3d chess is more like 3d poker.

Blogger Some Dude February 03, 2017 5:17 PM  

There is no solution to the Jew Problem. Either we kill them. Or they kill us over the long run. Their gamma tendency won't allow for cohabitation as the Eygptians, Ottomans, Germans, Russians, and Spanish found out. They are berbers even if they talk articulately and change DA MEANINS OF DUH WUDS THASS COMMMEN OUTTA MAH MOUTH to effect your view of reality.

Anonymous An Extremely Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than A Basket Of Twenty Deplorable Cents February 03, 2017 5:28 PM  

@96 One Deplorable DT
The Romans didn't have MagicDirt(TM). If we accepted the Goths their children would have become good, conservative Republican voters.

Family Values Don't Stop At The Danube!

Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) February 03, 2017 5:39 PM  

VD
It would be just if the Obamas and Merkels of the world met similar fates at the hands of the refugees they saved.



dammit, Vox.

no chastity belt was designed to withstand pressures like this.

now i'm going to have to fuck something.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones February 03, 2017 5:44 PM  

In defense of Pharaoh allowing 70 Israelites in... He had just finished getting rid of the Hyksos, so the Delta area was largely depopulated. It was worthwhile for him to have allies filling that area up.

The mistake is what Thomas Jefferson pointed out: population growth is independant of immigration. All immigration does is change the character of the population, not the amount. In his notes on Virginia, Jefferson noted that the counties that allowed immigrants, grew just as fast as the ones that didn't. This is why the Bible land laws are so important; without the land laws set forth in the Bible, resident aliens will displace your descendants, taking away their inheritance.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable February 03, 2017 5:46 PM  

The Jew-haters here are tiresome. No, we don't want Israel to run America from behind the drapes. No sane person does.

But realistically, Jews have been doing for centuries what we are only just waking up to: taking care of their own.

So should we blame them for playing identity politics? No. That's petulant and childish. But we should learn to play our own, and learn not to be led around by the nose by special interest groups, whomever they may be.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones February 03, 2017 5:46 PM  

Also, as for Israelite conflict with Egypt, they pretty much kept to the Delta area with their herds. Conflict came when the old dynasty died out and a completely new dynasty came to power, one that had been in some bloody battles with the Edomites. The Egyptians correctly saw the Edomites as kin-folk to the Israelites, but didn't see enmity between them. This is like people today conflating Jews and Arabs together. They may be Semites, but you can't really assume they'll be allies with each other.

Blogger Tuatha February 03, 2017 5:47 PM  

"After the Romans left Britain, it would take another one thousand year before running water in people's homes reappeared on the island."

See kids, this is why xtians should not write history books.

Blogger Matamoros February 03, 2017 5:58 PM  

One of the best things I've read on the problem:

The Fable of the Ducks and the Hens
Lincoln Rockwell

Many, many years ago
When animals could speak,
A wondrous thing the ducks befell;
Their tale is quite unique.

Down by a pond dwelt all these ducks,
— Ten thousand at the least —
Their duckish joys were undisturbed
By any man or beast.


One day down near the entrance gate
There was an awful din.
A hundred hens all out of breath
Were begging to come in.

“Oh let us in!” these poor birds cried,
“Before we do expire!
’Tis only by the merest INCH
That we escaped the fire!”

Their feathers burned, their combs adroop,
They were the saddest sight.
They’d run a hundred miles or more,
All day and then all night.

“Come in! Come in!” the ducks all quacked,
“For you our hearts do bleed!
We’ll share our happy lot with you;
Just tell us what you need!”

And so these poor bedraggled hens
Amongst the ducks moved in.
“For after all,” the ducks declared,
“We’re sisters ’neath the skin.”

Before too many months had lapsed,
The hens were good as new.
They sent for all their rooster friends,
And those were welcomed too.

To please their hosts, these chickens tried
To waddle and to quack.
To simulate the duckish ways,
They quickly learned the knack.

This pleased the flock of ducks because
It gratified their pride.
But hear my tale and learn how they
Got taken for a ride.

The ducks, it seemed, spent all their time
In fixing up the place;
In growing food and building homes
And cleaning every space.

They asked the hens what they would do
To earn their daily bread.
“We’ll teach and write and entertain,
And buy and sell,” they said.

And so these hens began to teach
The baby ducks and chicks.
They traded food and eggs and things,
With many clever tricks.

They wrote great books and put on shows
— Of genius they’d no lack.
It wasn’t long till chickens owned
The Duckville Daily Quack.

One day a mother duck who took
Her ducklings to the lake,
Was flabbergasted when one said,
“A swim I will not take!”

“Why duckling’s ALWAYS swim!” she gasped,
“It’s what you’re built to do!
Like bunnies hop, and crickets chirp,
And cows most always moo!”

“You’re NUTS!” her son replied,
“That stuff is all OLD HAT!
It’s wrong for birds to swim — besides,
It’s damn cold on my prat!”

“Oh fie!” the mother duck exclaimed,
“You’re talking like a fool!”
Up quacked the other ducklings then:
“He’s right! We learned in school!”

“Such things must stop!” the mother cried,
“Those hens can’t tell such lies!
For sheer ingratitude and nerve,
I’m sure this takes the prize!”

But she was wrong, for even then
The hens did thump the tub,
Demanding they be let into
The Duckville Swimming Club.

“But you don’t swim!” the ducks exclaimed,
“To join, why should you care?”
“That’s not the point” the hens replied,
“To exclude us isn’t fair!”

The younger ducks, who’d been to school
Agreed right there and then,
“To keep them out is bigotry!
’Twould just be ANTI-HEN!”

Outnumbered by the younger ducks,
The old ducks soon did lose.
The hens could join the Swimming Club,
If they would pay the dues.

That night the Duckville Daily Quack
Contained this banner spread:
“Reactionary Ducks are Licked!
Duckville moves Ahead!”

Down at the Duckville Gaity,
The young set laughed with glee,
At cracks about “old fuddy ducks”
In burlesque repartee.

Next day the hens were at the Club;
A petition they’d sent round
They objected to the Swimming Fund
With fury and with sound.

“You use our dues to fix the pond,
To keep it neat and trim
And this is wrong” they said, “because
You know we do not swim!”

“God help us!” cried a wise old duck,
“These chickens have gone mad!
We’ll take this thing to court, by George,
And justice will be had!”

But when they went before the judge,
Imagine their dismay!
A CHICKEN judge decreed that they
A heavy fine must pay!

“Minorities must have their rights!”
The judge declared right then.
“To use hens’ dues to fix the pond
Is very ANTI-HEN!”

Blogger Cul-De-Sac Hero February 03, 2017 5:59 PM  

So what would have happened if the Romans had taken up arms against the Huns and made room for the Goths? Would that be a more honourable option than letting them enter? More or less foolish than their chosen action?

Blogger Matamoros February 03, 2017 6:04 PM  

Read the rest at:

http://www.heretical.com/pubs/fabledh.html

Blogger JohnG February 03, 2017 6:07 PM  

The accounts of leaders letting their enemies children live tend to end equally wretchedly.

Anonymous Claudius Erectus February 03, 2017 6:12 PM  

The Romans didn't do too well against skilled archers, see their battles against the Parthinians.

Anonymous Deport negros February 03, 2017 6:25 PM  

@1

Agreed

Anonymous BBGKB February 03, 2017 6:33 PM  

Since we have covered alterations made to history, not only has "the good wife" & "madam secretary" rewrote the history of the Clintons, email, Waco & Russia but we have been watching "The Magicians" Syfy channel series and the latest one has that a single Mary Sue was responsible for winning both the US Civil war & WWII, a small concession is that she is a mudsharking pixie that looks just like a post wall white woman. (((Surprisingly))) feces played a major role in the episode.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 03, 2017 6:35 PM  

Cul-De-Sac Hero wrote:So what would have happened if the Romans had taken up arms against the Huns and made room for the Goths?
The Huns had a rival empire on the very border of Rome, a few days north of Constantinople. It was nearly the size and population of Rome, and far more militaristic. They lived in an uneasy friend/enemy relationship. Rome might have survived a decision attack the Huns to save the Goths.

Anonymous Deport negros February 03, 2017 6:42 PM  

TZ, I'd venture to guess that Christians of that time period resembled ISIS of today. Spain, during the conquests, certainly did.

Blogger R.N.Marable February 03, 2017 6:54 PM  

My wife, who is second generation Lebanese/Palestinian, went to Lebanon recently and came home with many stories of how the refugees just didn't care at all about the new land they inhabited. She got ill because they burn garbage, built structurally inferior structures to live in because the Lebanese government didn't have a handle on how they actually settled, and trashed the area. The sentiment was that the refugees never cared for where they were because it was "temporary" and wasn't their home.

What I took from this is that, perhaps, with strict controls for how refugees live, and how long they stay, perhaps you could mitigate the existential problem - refugees don't want to be where they end up....they want to be home. They are distinct from people who choose to leave because they want to be American, German, or whatever.

We don't have to ignore the differences between refugees and actual immigrants but we also don't have to leave people in the lurch....I think it's so all-or-nothing now. You either let them in because you love them or ban them because you hate them....it's like we're not even thinking anymore - which is sad.

Blogger R.N.Marable February 03, 2017 7:18 PM  

Ha - I like your post.

I used to go back and forth on what I thought was the extreme position of leaving everyone alone or proactively helping nations that we see in trouble - so we don't deal with refugees crises.

My thinking is that nation-building is nation-building whether you do it before or after. I think what makes (or made) the US different, was that we had a collection of people who said to themselves, "you know what...maybe a group of people and/or their representative (king/emperor/president) don't know what's best for me. Perhaps if we respect the inherent rights others have, we can let people be free and pursue happiness based on how they define it."

I think you have to come to that conclusion yourself. I don't think everyone feels that way; that's fine. Trying to pretend that everyone loves democratic republics, liberty, etc. is a pipe dream. Let people figure it out...give them reasons (consequences) to change their worldview - and only interfere when you think true atrocities...and not just unfortunate circumstances, are happening.

Anonymous PinochetsChopperPilot February 03, 2017 7:28 PM  

Who is that guy that does the "man on the street/dumb college kids" routine (that always works)? Mark Dice?

I so wish he would go out with the clipboard and some prop (Refuge helper sign-up station) and start having folks sign their names to commit to open their homes to refugees. Set it up with the Virtue Signal Opening...

"We are just looking for solid Americans looking to house refugees, to demonstrate to Donald Trump that HATE will not prevail...how it works is you sign your name and agree to take in a family, without payment (that would be wrong)..."

See how many of these snowflakes would sign it:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/02/03/fight-over-trump-travel-ban-resumes-boston-court/bqLjtMUAV5A0Oy09ANxTmN/story.html

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 03, 2017 7:41 PM  

@R.N.Marable
Stop cucking. They have to go home.

Anonymous Luke February 03, 2017 7:42 PM  

Excellent related parable: The Alienork Way

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/bracken-the-alienork-way/

Blogger Elder Son February 03, 2017 7:52 PM  

...they want to be American, German, or whatever.

http://vidmax.com/video/152111-Short-Documentary-Exposes-the-Muslim-Trojan-Horse-known-as-Mass-Immigration

They all want to be American, German, whatever... until they get to America, Germany, wherever.

And you're splitting hairs with refugees and "actual" immigrants.

Anonymous PinochetsChopperPilot February 03, 2017 8:33 PM  

@125/Luke

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2017/02/03/mosby-via-brackens-fb/#comments

I thought this was a good summation (including the comments) of the over-confidence of the Right. Having said that, despite all the para-military training the Left had and terror they engaged in since the mid '60s, they largely were steamrolled culturally, died in shootouts with cops, were locked up forever, converted to normalcy (or even LDS, LOL), or fled to Cuba.

Anonymous Somerset Frisby February 03, 2017 8:37 PM  

Those in favor of letting in countless refugees generally see them as helpless lesser people who could never pose any threat to the host nation. We are the ones who realize that every group must be seen as a possible worthy adversary. In other words, "Dems R Real Racists!"

Blogger Cecil Henry February 03, 2017 8:44 PM  

@126:


While violence is a concern, the prime reason we don't want non-Whites and Muslims is because we have the right to have our own countries.


They want to be IN America, and get the benefits and status and wealth OF America, to advance their personal and ethnic interests.

But that is what THEIR country is for, and for which THEY are responsible.

Anonymous Sharrukin February 03, 2017 9:07 PM  

127. PinochetsChopperPilot

they largely were steamrolled culturally, died in shootouts with cops, were locked up forever, converted to normalcy (or even LDS, LOL), or fled to Cuba.

The culture was a lot stronger then and most people were conservative in their daily lives. Marriage, women, politics, manners, schools, higher education, you name it, has all changed and gotten weaker.

Now even the 'conservative' right isn't all that conservative, and many on the right have lost faith in the primary culture along with the left.

That is why the Alt-Right exists after all.

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Who will defend the center in this day and age if the elites use an Orange Revolution from the streets to oust Trump (or attempt it)?

OpenID leukosfash February 03, 2017 9:16 PM  

Flotilla the Hun?

Blogger VD February 03, 2017 9:26 PM  

We don't have to ignore the differences between refugees and actual immigrants but we also don't have to leave people in the lurch....I think it's so all-or-nothing now. You either let them in because you love them or ban them because you hate them....it's like we're not even thinking anymore - which is sad.

Shut up, cucky. Read the post again. You complete missed the lesson. Your reading comprehension grade is: F.

Blogger Elder Son February 03, 2017 9:46 PM  

Thanks Cecil for certifying that for me! Who woulda thunk it until you thunk it fer me!

Babel and all.

Anonymous Just another commenter February 03, 2017 10:15 PM  

I ask "how many American lives is it worth? What would YOU say to the parents of a dead child, the kids of a dead parent, or sibling of a dead woman killed by an immigrant that YOU demanded be let into the nation? How many dead are worth it?"

I find that just trying to get them to give a number, any number, as they dance around it, will force them to admit that SOME will die because they know they cannot defend the postition that all of the immigrants / refugees will be angles. Pin them down on specific hypotheticals - how many dead, how much of their tax dollars spent on immigrants while we have our own unemployed and poor, how will their son or daughter benefit by competing against low-wage immigrants, how will their son benefit from a skewed male:female ratio when dating or wife-hunting, how will their daughter benefit from importing men from a culture where "women's rights" is a non sequiter? Make them defend the indefensible.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs February 03, 2017 11:23 PM  

I wonder, if one wanted to be slightly more compassionate, could the boats be towed back to wherever they came from and then damaged beyond repair? Maybe with a warning to the owners that the next time they themselves would be sleeping with the fishies?

Blogger rtp February 03, 2017 11:38 PM  

No Marvin. Unless you demonstrate the balls to do what must be done then nobody will ever believe you.

By the way I love your blog VD but even still. The quality of this post. Just ridonculous.

Anonymous Fed Up Aussie February 03, 2017 11:59 PM  

@121 Spare me your crocodile tears. Lebanese refugees in Australia treat their host nation just as bad.

Blogger Cul-De-Sac Hero February 04, 2017 12:31 AM  

Thank you for the info. Would you know if it would be comparable to the efforts put forth in the ME to fight regimes in Iraq and Syria so far? It just seems the options are let them fight for themselves or die, let them in or lend them support in their fight.
All seem fraught with problems. Eondering if there are other historical examples of lending support that could be helpful.

Blogger Were-Puppy February 04, 2017 12:37 AM  

@63 Sheila4g
Drove past local mosque doing errands this morning. Group of about 2 dozen white women waving signs reading "Love Trumps Hate."

I hate people.
---

I hate the idea that you have a local mosque

Blogger Were-Puppy February 04, 2017 12:41 AM  

@74 SciVo de Plorable

If the Ultras ever show up, the media will be dead or in hiding.
---

They are still in the womb

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 04, 2017 12:42 AM  

Marvin Boggs wrote:I wonder, if one wanted to be slightly more compassionate, could the boats be towed back to wherever they came from and then damaged beyond repair? Maybe with a warning to the owners that the next time they themselves would be sleeping with the fishies?

The compassionate thing is to keep them off the boats, because they know it will not work. The compassionate thing is to sink every boat until they, and boat owners, realize the risk involved.

The compassionate thing is to sink them within sight of Africa or Turkey.

Believe me, once word goes out that your boat will go to the bottom if you try to smuggle people into Europe, there will no longer be ships available.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 04, 2017 12:45 AM  

Cul-De-Sac Hero wrote:Thank you for the info. Would you know if it would be comparable to the efforts put forth in the ME to fight regimes in Iraq and Syria so far? It just seems the options are let them fight for themselves or die, let them in or lend them support in their fight.
Well, considering tha both the Libyan collapse and the Syrian civil war were intentionally engineered, and are intentionally maintained by the US government, maybe if we left them the fuck alone, they could sort it out themselves.

Blogger SteelPalm February 04, 2017 1:00 AM  

I've been traveling the past week and haven't kept up with the Darkstreams and blog as much, but this is one of your very best posts, Vox. Outstanding historical example.

Blogger Nate73 February 04, 2017 1:10 AM  

This is valuable if difficult content for me. I've been a libertarian for a long time, although not what you'd call an open borders type. Yet this whole borders thing is a real challenge to my thinking and Vox has played a big role in that. What if the only way to survive is to take a repugnant action, like picking up a rifle and sinking that ship with the refugees? My instinct is to leave others alone. But what if they don't want to leave me alone? I suspect that if I decide to start a family I may fully go over to the closed borders/nation-state side. For now keep the historical examples coming Vox!

Anonymous Sharrukin February 04, 2017 1:21 AM  

144. Nate73

What if the only way to survive is to take a repugnant action, like picking up a rifle and sinking that ship with the refugees? My instinct is to leave others alone. But what if they don't want to leave me alone?

Why do rifles exist?

(hint...they aren't for hunting)

Once you have answered that question, you will have answered the question about other men leaving you alone.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 04, 2017 1:39 AM  

@144
My instinct is to leave others alone. But what if they don't want to leave me alone?

Muh Non Aggression Principle! Isn't that all a libertarian needs?

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 2:31 AM  

Still reading ATOB. Suddenly I see exactly what's going to happen with the Reavers, gut-punchy as it will be.

Of course, for the cucks, even this historical reading will be willfully misinterpreted. I can see it now.

"The Romans didn't do enough, they should have given the refugees food and land and domiciles more quickly! If they had, they Goths never would have been driven to attack them!"

Suuuure. Even when none were available.

Suuuure, I should give up my home and my food and my land to the refugees so they won't be "forced" to attack me.

Nah, I'll just be "forced" instead to sink them before they arrive.

Blogger Nate73 February 04, 2017 2:36 AM  

It goes further than that Sharrukin. As a libertarian I'm fine in principle with defending my property. Defending a border, acting as a group with other armed men, this is a big leap from pure voluntaryism/Rothbardianism which is what I've read the most of. I guess in some ways the border for me is like what Free Trade was for Vox, animmovable ideological rock meeting an irresistible moral fact.

I hope Vox was right in his interview with Stef where he said we're probably the grandfathers of the men who will go to the walls, because I sure as hell know I probably can't do it.

Anonymous Alt February 04, 2017 2:40 AM  

@63 Sheila

https://imgflip.com/i/1iw7kg

Blogger John Williams February 04, 2017 3:03 AM  

I hate the idea that you have a local mosque
You should see our shiny new mosque, it covers half a city block.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 3:03 AM  

The only possible solution I can see is multifaceted. I'll use the historical example.

#1: The Goths could have fled "around" Rome or otherwise along the river instead of asking to be taken over to the Roman side.
#2: If some Goths were trapped, unable to flee without moving into Roman territory apply a process I term "faithlessness to the faithless":
A: Separate them entirely from each other before bringing them inside. When I say separate, I mean completely isolated, sight/sound/etc.
B: Ask each one in turn (save the children of such age they could not possibly fight, keep them off to the side [also separated] while trying their parents/siblings) if they are a Christian.
C: If they say no, execute them (and their children, sorry to say) out of hand.
D: If they say yes, test them on the core doctrines, if they are not truly Christian, execute them and their children.
E: Tell them to renounce their faith or die (in a painful fashion). If they renounce their faith, execute both them and their children.
F: If they keep to their faith to the point of death, let them and their children (those below martial age) pass, but disarm them and keep them isolated still so that they cannot communicate with those still trying to gain entry.
G: For any who cannot be processed fast enough to escape, let them die. It's not you doing the killing.

The reason for this is simple. The only guarantor you can have of their behavior and truthfulness is to test them to the point of death (which they are already fleeing). If they are not willing to die before sacrificing their (Christian) faith, you'll know that they are liars and not to be trusted. If they actually mean it, and will not throw it away just because they are hungry or thirsty or uncomfortable after they escape immediate danger, they can (probably) at least be trusted not to turn on you at the first opportunity, doing so in contravention of their supposed faith.

Anonymous Sharrukin February 04, 2017 3:05 AM  

147. Nate73

Defending a border, acting as a group with other armed men, this is a big leap from pure voluntaryism/Rothbardianism

Being part of a group is part of what it is to be human. That is why there is a thing called libertarianism. You know...a group of people who gathered together and who believe the same thing?

Can you believe in the state controlling everything and still be a libertarian? I would assume not, so you would then exclude that guy from singing songs around the libertarian campfire.

There is no other way to have a group or to maintain a group.

The reason libertarianism seems possible currently is because in the wealthy west, someone else is carrying the freight as far as protection and maintenance goes.

we're probably the grandfathers of the men who will go to the walls, because I sure as hell know I probably can't do it.

You assume you will have a choice about it? How quaint. A wealthy western assumption.

Are you going to lay down and be clubbed to death like a baby seal?

If not then you will have to fight and fighting in a group is what will increase your chances of survival. That is why tribes exist.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 3:10 AM  

@151. Sharrukin, the most concise disproof of the Libertarian philosophy is this: It can only exist within conditions cannot possibly produce.

Blogger wreckage February 04, 2017 3:11 AM  

@147, without a border to delineate the polity, and thereby the rule of law, you can't have Libertarianism of the kind you cite, for exactly the reason you cite; like early Christian pacifism, it cannot survive even the briefest contact with the mildest hostility. It simply becomes the serf of the first authoritarian it meets.

Christianity had to work that out to survive, and so do you, and the simplest answer is that the State exists to protect your rights and freedoms and as such is not only permitted but morally obligated to do so in whatever way most humanely GUARAN-FUCKING-TEES your ongoing rights and freedoms.

The least obligation then, is to prevent invasion, be it under arms or not.

If your Libertarianism is not compatible with that, it is not a political ideal but a mental disorder; that's not an insult to you, by the way, as you will see if you think about it. Any mental process that makes your death likely or inevitable is contra-survival and hence, a disorder.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 3:11 AM  

*within conditions it cannot possibly produce.*

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 3:18 AM  

@153. I have to disagree with your statement that "Any mental process that makes your death likely or inevitable is contra-survival and hence, a disorder."

It is either incorrectly phrased or operating under an extremely loose definition of "your" death. Simply put, parents will often sacrifice their lives to prevent their children dying. Where doing so is logical and effective, this is not a disorder. Similarly, soldiers must be willing to die if necessary to defend their nation/people. If they are not willing, the nation and the people will surely die.

This is, I will agree, very confusing mental territory, as it calls into question "just where exactly does a person end, and their ancestors/progeny/peoples begin?"

Anonymous Sharrukin February 04, 2017 3:19 AM  

152. Benjamin Kraft

@151. Sharrukin, the most concise disproof of the Libertarian philosophy is this: It can only exist within conditions it cannot possibly produce.

Concise and to the point.

Utopian ideologies tend not to survive contact with reality.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 04, 2017 3:20 AM  

"Does a man die when his body dies, or when his ideals die? Does he die when the effects of his ideals working through him upon the Earth cease?"

Blogger Adrian Blog's February 04, 2017 3:55 AM  

Cel mai bun tratament pe care il avem acasa si de care nici nu stim ! Tratament natural -Sarea de bucatarie. Vezi mai multe detalii: http://adrianstyl3.blogspot.ro/2017/02/sarea-cel-mai-bun-tratament-pe-care-il.html

Blogger Nate73 February 04, 2017 4:34 AM  

@153: I was taught Christianity just had to hold out until Constantine had a vision, and afterwards enjoyed the status of state-enforced belief.

And to be clear I also support cooperative defense, just not via a central state. Kind of like the hobbits at the end of RoTK. Example: Say a path is created by villagers walking to a river. Then they logically have claim to that path because they created it, and so have the right to defend it. But I wouldn't accept some state (saruman and grima) 500 miles away showing up to tell them what to do with it. If borders have to exist I'd prefer them to be small and distributed.

Blogger Some Dude February 04, 2017 5:31 AM  

SO the poem by Rockwell.

Rockwell figured it out too:
"In the summer of 1966, Rockwell led a counter-demonstration against Martin Luther King's attempt to bring an end to de facto segregation in the white Chicago suburb of Cicero, Illinois. He believed that King was a tool for Jewish Communists who wanted to integrate America.[16] Rockwell believed that integration was a Jewish plot to rule the white community"

Today magic negro king is a national holiday. Zions gift to the lower IQ high empathy gentiles ahahahahahahah.

Blogger Paul Geerts February 04, 2017 7:02 AM  

I like the Idea of Bombing the Boats so much I Wrate a song about it http://tinyurl.com/ha29ckn

Blogger Duke Norfolk February 04, 2017 8:44 AM  

Were-Puppy wrote:I hate the idea that you have a local mosque

Yes, this. All the arguments that are based on possible Islamic terrorism in our country, so exasperate me (pretty much coming from the cuckservatives, so no surprise). Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Look around you people!

Blogger wreckage February 04, 2017 9:06 AM  

@155 Conceded in the sense intended; reproductive fitness may certainly be considered a higher order demand than personal survival.

Blogger Cail Corishev February 04, 2017 9:16 AM  

I wonder, if one wanted to be slightly more compassionate, could the boats be towed back to wherever they came from and then damaged beyond repair?

No. Perhaps that could have been done when they first started coming. But now, whites have spent the last few decades teaching them that we will bend over every time. Maybe we'll protest a bit, but if they show some drowned baby pictures, we'll cave. We can threaten all we want, and they'll assume we're bluffing.

It's going to take actual sinking of ships (or shooting people from walls) -- more than once, unfortunately, before they will believe we're not bluffing anymore. The first time a boat full of people is sunk, they will hope that it was a one-off act by one renegade captain, or a momentary bit of frustration by the target nation. They will use it as propaganda, hoping to make the target even more cowed than before, and send twice as many ships to test the target's resolve. ("They sank one, but will they sink ten? Loaded with women and children, who were interviewed on TV before the boats launched?") It will take many repetitions of that cycle before they will accept that things have changed.

That's just how it is. If you've been letting a dog jump on you and lick your face for years, you can't teach him not to in a single training session. There's not going to be a quick, painless solution.

Blogger Cecil Henry February 04, 2017 10:58 AM  

If you sink the ships then the invaders will KNOW that what they do is wrong. And they will respect you.


If you don't, they will pretend it isn't.

That's the reality.

Blogger Sheila4g February 04, 2017 11:13 AM  

@139 Were-Puppy: "I hate the idea that you have a local mosque."

Very much so. There's another one I pass by on the way to my hair dresser, and another one a few blocks from my gym. These are all in different, contiguous North Dallas suburban cities. It sucks.

@151 Sharrukin: "Being part of a group is part of what it is to be human. That is why there is a thing called libertarianism. You know...a group of people who gathered together and who believe the same thing?"

@144 Nate 73:

There is an excellent post by Anonymous Conservative that addresses your concerns: koch brothers

". . . libertarianism is a reproductive strategy designed to function alone, in spread out areas with low population densities, where large groups do not form . . . and only fight as a last resort, if it is absolutely necessary. He lacks the group-forming and reflexively competing urge of the K-strategist. Without that urge, he cannot fathom why we should have borders . . . wants to avoid others, avoid conflict, and leave everyone else alone. The Grizzly bear can’t grasp why the wolf wants to join a pack or why they attack others they happen upon in their territory for no reason other than the trespass."




Anonymous Loki7 February 04, 2017 2:44 PM  

Yeah sink the ships. The fish have to eat.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 04, 2017 4:47 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:That's just how it is. If you've been letting a dog jump on you and lick your face for years, you can't teach him not to in a single training session. There's not going to be a quick, painless solution.
My elderly neighbor has been doing worse than this with our young lab bitch. She'll actually gie the dog a treat only after she jumps up and licks her face. A holdover from when she was younger and stronger, I'm sure, but damn. I've asked and asked her not to do it.
Anyway, the neighbor's getting frail, and I'm having to chain the dog up for fear that she will knock the neighbor over, break a bone or even kill her.
She asked why I had the dog chained so much, and I told her bluntly "You've trained her diligently to knock you down and possibly injure you. Now, because of you, I can't trust her."
She looked sad, but had no answer.
Every goddamn pro-immigrationist is just that stupid and narcissistic.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 04, 2017 4:55 PM  

Nate73 wrote:
I was taught Christianity just had to hold out until Constantine had a vision, and afterwards enjoyed the status of state-enforced belief.

Wow, four lies in one horribly bad description of a very complex history.

Blogger Roger G2 February 04, 2017 5:47 PM  

@1
I must agree.

Blogger Nate73 February 05, 2017 12:24 AM  

@167: Thanks, I follow his blog and have learned a lot from it. He is actually more similar to that than he lets on, his instincts are between the K and the bear.

@170: Learn to humor bro.

Anonymous David February 05, 2017 10:14 AM  

"The Byzantine Empire" Kindle edition is free for Amazon Prime members, in case it hasn't been mentioned yet...

Blogger Martin February 06, 2017 10:52 AM  

Peter Heathers "Empire and Barbarians" is a great read for those that want a modern opinion on the migrationera. His project is to somewhat break with the exclusive elite transfer models of post ww2 without losing what knowledge has actually been collected.

Blogger im-skeptical February 11, 2017 1:17 PM  

The moral of the story is that if we had sensible gun control, we wouldn't have so much reason to fear what refugees might do. Besides lacking humanity, Republicans are just plain stupid.

Blogger ASOM August 03, 2017 11:52 AM  

Roman's lands? Lol, you mean the land they seized from other nations/tribes by war and killings?

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